Wintery Knight

…integrating Christian faith and knowledge in the public square

What does the common practice of withholding sex reveal about women?

Dennis Prager features a lot of discussions about male-female relationships on his show, particularly during the male-female hour. I think this is one of the parts of his show that I really like best, because he knows what he is talking about.

He did a two part series a while back on 1) male sexuality and 2) what women should do about it within a marriage.

Part 1 is here.

Excerpt:

It is an axiom of contemporary marital life that if a wife is not in the mood, she need not have sex with her husband. Here are some arguments why a woman who loves her husband might want to rethink this axiom.

First, women need to recognize how a man understands a wife’s refusal to have sex with him: A husband knows that his wife loves him first and foremost by her willingness to give her body to him. This is rarely the case for women. Few women know their husband loves them because he gives her his body (the idea sounds almost funny). This is, therefore, usually a revelation to a woman. Many women think men’s natures are similar to theirs, and this is so different from a woman’s nature, that few women know this about men unless told about it.

This is a major reason many husbands clam up. A man whose wife frequently denies him sex will first be hurt, then sad, then angry, then quiet. And most men will never tell their wives why they have become quiet and distant. They are afraid to tell their wives. They are often made to feel ashamed of their male sexual nature, and they are humiliated (indeed emasculated) by feeling that they are reduced to having to beg for sex.

When first told this about men, women generally react in one or more of five ways…

He then explains the 5 ways that women respond to this.

Here’s one:

1. You have to be kidding. That certainly isn’t my way of knowing if he loves me. There have to be deeper ways than sex for me to show my husband that I love him.

And this is the common mistake that some feminist women make because they think that men are just hairy women with no feelings and desires of their own that are distincly theirs. In the past, all women understood how men are different than women, but today almost no younger feminist women do. In fact, many younger women today struggle with the idea that there is anything different about men that they need to learn. The only thing that they need to know is what makes women happy, and that it is everyone else’s job to make women happy, so that women can then behave nicely (whatever that means). Younger feminist women today often think that they only need to be in touch with their own feelings – and that men and children simply have to get used to the idea that they have no right to make any demands on a woman – she has no moral obligations in a marriage.

Here’s another from the list:

4. You have it backwards. If he truly loved me, he wouldn’t expect sex when I’m not in the mood.

I think this whole problem of feminist women not understanding men, and of demeaning male feelings and values, is very serious. In my opinion, there is a whole lot of work that needs to be done by feminism-influenced women in order to fix this problem. The best place to learn about this is in Dr. Laura’s book “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”. It’s like an application form for a serious relationship. Sex is one thing, but a serious man should insist that a woman take him seriously – and take marriage and children seriously. Pre-marital sex, having fun, getting drunk, and going out, etc. are not the right foundation for a relationship that is defined by the need for mutual self-sacrifice. There is no such thing as a “feminist” marriage – marriage is not about selfishness and playing the victim.

I actually had a conversation with a Christian woman once who said that women should not be obligated to do things that they didn’t feel like doing. I asked her if men were obligated to go to work when they didn’t feel like going. She said yes, and acted as though I were crazy for asking. I just laughed, because she didn’t even see the inconsistency. Many young feminist women today just don’t understand men, and they don’t want to understand them. They just want what they want and in the quickest way possible. Understand the needs of men and children, or how feminist-inspired laws discourage men from committing to marriage and parenting, are of no interest at all.

Part 2 is here.

Excerpt:

Here are eight reasons for a woman not to allow not being in the mood for sex to determine whether she denies her husband sex.

He then explains the eight reasons.

Here’s one of them:

7. Many contemporary women have an almost exclusively romantic notion of sex: It should always be mutually desired and equally satisfying or one should not engage in it. Therefore, if a couple engages in sexual relations when he wants it and she does not, the act is “dehumanizing” and “mechanical.” Now, ideally, every time a husband and wife have sex, they would equally desire it and equally enjoy it. But, given the different sexual natures of men and women, this cannot always be the case. If it is romance a woman seeks — and she has every reason to seek it — it would help her to realize how much more romantic her husband and her marriage are likely to be if he is not regularly denied sex, even of the non-romantic variety.

This makes the point that many young feminist women today do not really understand that they are, in a sense, capable of changing their husband’s conduct by the way they act themselves. I think that younger feminist women seem to think that their role in the relationship is to sort of do nothing and wait for the man to serve them. But relationships take work, and they take work from both participants.

At the end of the article, Prager makes a general point about women that I think needs to be emphasized over and over and over:

That solution is for a wife who loves her husband — if she doesn’t love him, mood is not the problem — to be guided by her mind, not her mood, in deciding whether to deny her husband sex.

I think that is an excellent question to ask a woman. What does it mean to love a man? I was forwarded one amazing response from a Calvinist woman recently in which she explained several things that she wanted to do to meet a particular man’s needs and make his life easier, and what she was prepared to do now in order to show him that she really could do handle the role. I think that she said these things out of sympathy and understanding of that man, and that was very encouraging.

But I think that kind of seriousness about taking of someone else as they really are, self-sacrificially, is rare. And it makes me wonder what people think that marriage is when they get into the church and make vows that, ostensibly, will require self-sacrifice. What do women think that marriage is? What is the goal of it? What makes a marriage successful? Why do women think that men marry? What do men get out of marriage? What are the woman’s responsibilities to the man in a marriage? I think these are questions that men should ask women. And the should not be satisfied with glib answers. Men should demand that books be read, that essays be written, that skills be developed, and that the woman’s life experiences show that she has understood what will be expected from her and why.

I think that it’s a good idea for men to try to get married, but they should be careful to make sure that the woman they choose is sensitive to their needs, just as men ought to be sensitive to the needs of women.

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212 Responses

  1. lwayswright says:

    I don’t always think it is about “denying” sex. And, often women would give a husband sex any day of the week, several times a day if the husband would just help out in the littlest of ways! I am on my second marriage and i can honestly say our sex life is much different because he “understands women” and what it takes to get us BOTH to a place where we want and enjoy sex! A couple needs to work together on this stuff. There shouldn’t have to be a time when a wife has to have sex when she doesn’t want to! Sex is the coming together of two people who love each other and want to share intimacy…you can’t really share a whole lot of intimacy if one of you doesn’t want to be there!

    • Rick in Denver says:

      In regard to Iwayswright. Wow, no disrespect intended but, that is pretty simplistic and naive. I (and several men I have known) Bust our tooshies doing ANYTHING and everything for our wives. Kindness, sweetness, dishes, vacuuming, cooking, anything she wants. I do EVERYTHING my wife wants and MUCH MUCH More.
      NO difference at all. I can hint, ask beg, etc. for some romance and sex. She just giggles and says “OK” then somehow never gets around to it.
      I think counselors need to somehow shake women out of their slumber. Being “mr. nice guy” does not work I have been married twice and BOTH – I served and served and loved and cherished- BOTH were more excited about a new hand lotion than they were about sex.

      • lwayswright says:

        I never said no to my husband when it came to sex. But I do think for a lot of people there are cycles, moods, and times when you have more and times when you have less. It is part of that ebb and flw of life!

        • Rick in Denver says:

          Iwayswright, again- no disrespect intended. But you are talking about apples and oranges. We are not talking about occasional times when the woman says no (for the reasons you mention) Most men have no problem with that. We are talking about SAYING NO as the norm of life. YES. I understand the “ebb and flow of life” we’re talking about the tide going out and rarely if ever coming back in.
          My thoughts: you are a GOOD person and treat your husband right. And you simply think all women think like you. (example: “I never say no to my husband when it came to sex) That proves you are a horse of a different color.
          So, good for you. BUT please speak up to other women, WAY too many ARE NOT like you- and to them, saying “no” is the norm.

          • Erc Schnell says:

            I am deprived of affection, sex and whatever I say or do is irritating or foolish neanderthal behavior. She still makes me coffee in the morning and brings me lunch to work (at the family business, but other than that the affection and sex is not on her to do list. I’d leave if we didn’t have three beautiful children, but I will never leave them. Masturbation is boring and ineffective, porn is boring and ineffective. I need her and she isn’t there in a affectionate capacity.

        • I think you are fine then, because what men are worried about is regular sex withholding intended to punish or just for no reason. What you’re talking about makes sense and sounds fine.

          • Rick in Denver says:

            I am not one to play the victim and blame others BUT…
            Men, (and I am speaking of mostly Christian men) admit to feeling cheap and guilty…demeaned, when they resort to masturbation. BUT I will admit, I do that MUCH more than having real sex- because my wife withholds sex.
            After weeks of hinting, and outright asking to make love (yes..in sweet romantic ways) And being rebuffed,
            I finally give up and give in to masturbation to get rid of the tension. And a few times, my wife even recommended it herself!
            And this is in a Christian marriage where the wife is treated lovingly and respectfully.
            Your thoughts?

      • Bruce says:

        I know Rick is right. Religion does not really factor into this though. It’s about women…..period.
        Like Rick, i’M THE DO ANYTHING FOR MY WIFE husband. 27 years of frustration. She told me a few weeks after marriage that she would not have oral sex any longer “because we’re married now.”
        My advice is to either leave her now or just get used to it as nothing will ever change. You’ll grow to resent her in time and then, like me, you’ll just stop trying to initiate sex. I haven’t had any in over a year and when confronted she gets defensive and blames me.

        • SM says:

          What is worked for me is to agree on a one night per week…thru out the year, and to let me know if any change – rain check for the change. I get denied lots of other times, and its very frustrating. Ones a week is better than none. I think women want to feel a sense of control. At the garden of eden the curse to the woman was that she will want to have what man has – the head or in charge. Divorcing is not a solution because you will just be married to another woman and the are very much the same towards satisfying their husbands in this area. Stick with her and agree on this in advance. May God help both men and women to stop the selfishness towards each other in their union.

      • WifeDenied says:

        Your situation sounds just like mine, but reversed. My husband NEVER initiates sex. If I ask him to make love to me, he will find some way to start an argument with me. If I try to sweet talk him while he’s at work, he will stay at work a longer time than usual. He sleeps on the sofa every night. He will kiss my forehead before he goes to work as if I’m some puppy.

        I caught him watching porn, so he must want some sort of sexual release, not just with me. I am and have in the past in other relationships have had some freaky-you-want-me-to-do-what? sex. I am looking sexier now than I did before we got married. He doesn’t care.

        I feel trapped. I moved to a different state to be with him and now I regret it.

        He tells me that he loves me, but I don’t know any husband who doesn’t want to have sex. My friends think I’m lying. I wish I was.

        I want to have an affair. Not because I want anything emotional. I want to just have sex, have someone hold me, kiss me….make me feel beautiful.

        • I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe it would be a good idea to sit down with him and just listen to him. One thing that would work on me (if I were married) would be spending time with me doing something that I want to do, or letting me go play something with my male friends, or letting my male friends come over and then my wife playing with us at some boardgame or wargame. Maybe something co-operative like Pandemic.

          A good book to read is Dr. Laura’s “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”.

        • Monica says:

          WOW!! In my honest opinion if your hubby refuses sex, sleeps on the couch etc, then he may be the one having an affair. That’s how I found out about my husbands affair years ago, he left the bed for the couch. CLEAR sign he’s with someone else. Hopefully I’m wrong, and maybe it’s just ED? But that’s a sure fire signal that there’s something wrong.

        • Kentuckyman says:

          Wow, maybe our two spouses can get together and you and I can hook up. I’m in the same boat, I can’t convince my wife to have sex, she’s always too tired, sick, or has some lame ass excuse, its hard not just wave the white and call it a day.

        • Paul says:

          My deepest sympaties. As I was reading your first paragraph my first thought was porn, and indeed you brought that up in the second paragraph.

          Are you involved in a church at all? Would you know a pastor who would be able to come alongside the two of you and counsel you. Someone your husband would listen to? Or does your husband have any close friends who might be able to come alongside him and help him?

          I will be praying for you WifeDenied.

        • c says:

          I am in the same situation, he has no intension of changing – we went to counseling. Not much help. He is set in his ways. Trying to talk about it ends in just sitting there or a fights and he says he has no answers – year after year. He says he wants to and is attracted to me, he is bottled up and has no answers to give. He is very avoidant in a lot of ways and has control issues apparent to lots of people but he doesn’t see it that way…been over a year now since and it was about a year before that…he just shrugs. Makes promises to change when I say it’s time for us to be done and then nothing….this is not just a “mans” issue, it is definately a personality type that can occur in any relationship. It is extremely hurtful and damaging. We had talked before marriage that I had concerns we weren’t compatible in this area and maybe shouldn’t marry, and he promised it wouldn’t be a problem once we were married. When I remind him of that he just sighs real big and either has no response or says he knows…

        • Billyclyde says:

          I would be lying if I didn’t think about cheating as a way out of the problem… She is completely disinterested. Even when I bring it up as a real problem that is going to lead to divorce. Nope, no dice. I am so sick of it. I resent her. I start thinking the worst about her… she must be having an affair since she was so sexual when we were dating and at the beginning of the marriage. Once a week? I would KILL for once a week. Months go by with nothing. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life in half a relationship. I want her to wake up to the reality that I have needs… real needs. Done.

      • JC says:

        You are so correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A man can dedicate every second to a woman and she will just want more service.

      • Veronica says:

        Well Rick, I’m in the same boat as you, only I’m a woman and it’s the MAN who is withholding sex (and affection) due to moods and other excuses. Hell, I’ve even given pretty regular random bj’s without expecting anything back for myself. He doesn’t appreciate me, or he wouldn’t go weeks/months without caring whether I’m remotely “satisfied.” And yes, I’ve had plenty of chats with him on this matter, and I communicate well, so it’s not that he has to “read my mind” about it, or whatever. But that right there should be proof to you that all people can’t be lumped in one category. There are plenty of women who love sex and are giving, and it’s the man who doesn’t pony up.

      • jeff says:

        I agree. I clean up pay the bills fix cars and the house take care of kids and pets, bake bread, deserts ect ect ect. Nothing. Mabey once a month. i am fit and healthy my kids adore me, and the cat prefers me. We have been together almost 25 years. The entire time i wished for sex, and the last 5yrs i have literally cried & begged & demanded & tried every angle known to man. Doesn’t work. Now i am trying a different tactic. Its called please myself. I lift weights, dress nice and try to be the best me i can be. If i see a lady i like i talk to her. If i want to join a dance class i do. I went to a party yesterday and decided i would practice socializing with everybody. I had a great time, and met 3 ladies (out of about 50) who i swear liked me, they asked me to dance, and looked at me in that way. Wow i had fun and got a much needed ego boost. Guess who now seems more interested in my new confidence? My advice to men is work on yourself for yourself. Now my problem is trying to remember why i love my wife and why i wasted all those years begging a reluctant spouse. Letting her know i only have eyes for her and would never stray was poor strategy( begging for sex empowered her and diminished my value to her) now she seems to rise to the competition as i (seem to)have options that don’t include her. I am sure we would have broken up, but working on me for me seems to have intrigued her, so i will keep trying.

        • Monica says:

          You know it’s great that u have taken pride in yourself. However adultery is a big no-no!! And even seeking affections of another whether it be dancing, texting, chatting can cause a lot more strife in your relationship. Don’t let the devil take the wheel!!!

          So many men say they are pretty much ‘mr moms’ on this thread. Which is great!!! I wish I had that, but I don’t. The real question is, even with doing all that, what genuine affection are giving your wife other than begging for sex??

          Women need SO MUCH MORE than just the act itself … Men r from mars women r from Venus. It takes a lot to get our oven hot … Aka romance. And sometimes that means NOT having sex. But just the one on one intamacy. Take the time to woo your wife like u did 25 yrs ago to bed her and see if that doesn’t make a difference.

          Life is life … Kids, homework, bills, dishes, laundry, cleaning, cooking, etc … It all piles up!!! But that’s not INTIMACY WITH YOUR WIFE!!! When u don’t have that one on one intimacy eventually U end up where u are today … Begging for sex and her being disgusted by your caveman begging and no sex happens at all … She’s frustrated cuz she thinks u see her only as a piece of meat, and you’re frustrated cuz u aren’t getting anything. It’s a vicious cycle that won’t end until someone stops it, and it usually takes the man … Sorry.

          Men use sex to release stress, enjoy their wives, and release stress, and release stress and release stress … U get my drift. Women don’t use sex as a stress relief, they use it to connect and become one with their partner. However without preheating the oven it just doesn’t happen. And taking care of daily life isn’t preheating HER oven.

          Let your parents watch the kids, hire a maid, and u and your wife go on a romantic weekend getaway … BUT don’t ‘expect’ sex, treat it as a relaxing getaway … Get a couples massage, day of beauty, and just spend time TOGETHER, and it will happen. It will change everything as long as u don’t demand it or expect sex. Cuz trust me, her radar will read thru u faster that u can blink if u do expect it. Go have fun together without kids or daily life and let nature take it’s course. But don’t have sex on your mind. Cuz we can read that faster than u know!!! Do it because u love her and want to enjoy the time together, ‘life free’ if only for a day or two. Good luck!!!

          • I’m a big advocate of women changing first. That usually makes a bigger difference in the marriage. However, the only one anyone can change is themselves.

            You are right, however, that women do need non-sexual touch and intimacy on a regular basis to feel in the mood. A woman feels close to her husband when he holds her hand, gives her a back rub, kisses her, gazes into her eyes, or winks and smiles over little things without expecting sex every time. That tells her it’s about her, not just her body. If the only time a man kisses his wife or gives her a compliment or starts touching her is when he wants sex, she will figure it out and start to shut down. If such intimate things are only a means to his end, she starts to feel like a thing to be used – like every time he does anything nice is just trying to get her in bed and not because he actually wanted to do it. If those intimate things are just something he does regularly, without expectations, she’ll believe she’s really loved.

            On the other hand, I think lot of women have a wrong idea about what men are doing when they want sex. It’s not necessarily treating a woman like a piece of meat for a man to want sex with his wife. Most husbands don’t just want physical release. They can do that themselves. They want connection with their wives. Women connect primarily through conversation. Men connect primarily through sex. So she wants connection BEFORE sex while he wants connection THROUGH sex. If more women realized that a plea for sex is also a plea for connection with her, maybe they wouldn’t say no so often.

    • Mike says:

      This sounds good in theory but in real life practical situations it just doesn’t work, all theory need modifications in order to work so let’s get real.

    • Mitch says:

      Perhaps that is true in your situation, it certainly isn’t the case in mine. My wife has made it clear that not only does she have to be in the mood, but she has to be in the mood and feel as if I deserve intimacy. Not even sex necessarily! So, If I want even a chance to have sex, I have to constantly he at her beck and call, often for as long as a week until her mood is right.

      • Monica says:

        YES, we do have to be in the mood, and unfortunately that’s not just when u walk thru the door at night. We need appreciation for what we do do, that starts our oven during the day. Just a kind text, nothing nasty. We may be hookers in the bedroom, but were ladies in the parlor as the old saying goes. So treat us as such when in the parlor. Don’t beg, it demeans is and makes us feel line were nothing but a piece of meat that u can pick up at any local store. It’s complicated, we r complicated creature, god made us that way. But we r the lost loving and caring when treated honorably. Like the bible and god wishes is to be treated. Love your wife as Jesus loved the church. In a nutshell.

    • kevmit69 says:

      He doesn’t “understand women” anymore than you clearly don’t “understand men”. You are deluding yourself to justify your attempt at coercion through sexual denial. Male and female sexual needs are radically, and demonstrably, different, across almost all species including our own. This has been proven time and time again, in countless studies. Read a book. If you mistrust scientific data on this subject (like most woman I’ve ever met), then you might peruse religious guidelines instead. I’d suggest starting with 1 Corinthians 7:1-10.

    • saea says:

      amen this is good!! my husband has tried to convince me that is my job to give him sex yet when i initate sex he rejects me. what a flake or my favorite i suggested one night to be intimate he went to take a shower and i went to tell him something and caught him flying solo, he then tried to deny it.
      later he has told me that i have not wanted him in a long time. i
      told him he needs therapy. sex should mutual love and enjoyment maybe men should grow up and learn how to be husbands and satisfying lovers. if sex was only for men how come women can have multiple orgasms . maybe women dont want sex because they are not really loving their wives. my husband spent most of our marriage with the tv and his tractor then he demanded sex. and he could not understand why i lost interest in him.

      • saea says:

        that was husbands not loving their wives when you see a man will to sacrifice for you. you respond to his love!!!

      • Monica says:

        Amen to that!!! Most men look at sex as only satisfying themselves!! Once they’re done, it’s over and we are left unsatisfied. Men need to stay on it for the lkng haul, and once they do, not only will they be sore and won’t want it for days, cuz they physically cant do it, but their wives will be all over them like flies on …. Well u know!! It’s a 2 way street boys, not one way!!!

    • Darren says:

      Well bull !!because I cook I clean I am romantic I’m good looking and am NOT a selfish lover ,…she denies me constantly ??? I’m lost cant take another day of this I’m done

    • Broken says:

      Your right sex is special union between two loving people. Safely and lovingly but I have major problem in my marriage. Husband is sexual abuser and has many multiple partners and made me sick. Find out he was abused as child. So guess what I am facing our children are suffering same abuse. He never shared this with me. His mother or sister never told me. This man behavior has harmed and embarassed our children. Our children made reports then were terrorized by officals, husband and his friends. I had to open several investigstions to uncover this. Turned out he has illegitmate children by multiple women and has spent a lot of our funds on this. These women are going to face legal action due to the fact it financially harmed our children’s future. They had relations with married man who had legitimate children. They knew he was married. Not only did they engage married man but turns out one who is extremely vaunerable from childhood abuse. People tell me go get a boyfriend. If you were me would u want one after something like this? The sheer thought of it turns my stomach and the abuse has hurt my women organs that cost thousands to repair and clean.

  2. Craig says:

    I’ve never understood why Christian women don’t get this. Paul actually talks about this in 1 Corinthians 7, saying that neither man nor woman should deny the other.

    I used to listen to Dr. Laura all the time. It was terrifying and maybe jaded me a little bit. There would be woman after woman complaining about their man doing something to get sexual pleasure. Or being really unhappy with them. And Dr. Laura would surprise me by asking the gals if they slept with their husbands. Invariably, they said no, because they didn’t want to or they weren’t ever in the mood, or whatever. And then Dr. Laura would say – Duh? You partially caused the situation. Not that it was moral, but there’s probably going to be an outlet. And then Dr. Laura would drop the bomb and tell them – he’s just waiting till the kids are 18, and then adios. Paul sure was way ahead of our time!

    Everybody should remember Dr. Laura’s Triple A’s: affection, appreciation, and approval. Give those to a guy and any worries are gone.

    • Yeah, did you read the comment by lwaysright? This is the standard reaction to moral obligations – blame men. It’s a constant drumbeat.

      Regarding the 3 As, could not agree with you more. Men live off of those As. I once had a Biblical Manhood and Womanhood Calvinist complain that I should not need encouragement from her, and that she should have no obligation to give me any. I think the problem was that this person had used sex to control men before she became a Christian, and was deeply resentful of the idea that she should have to do any learning, work, or following in order to prepare for marriage. For her, marriage was a continuation of dating, vacationing and partying – marriage was about her having fun, and having her needs met, and having pictures taken, playing with babies before shipping them off to day care / public schools, and dancing around at parties every night. Men and children required no work. They had no right to impose any obligations on her whatsoever.

      • Retha says:

        It is sad that some people want to marry, but not take responsibility. It is also a reason to talk and think-early in dating, before getting serious- about what a partner think marrage is about.

      • Craig says:

        I read the comment, and noted “second marriage.” Then I loved the line: “There shouldn’t have to be a time when a wife has to have sex when she doesn’t want to!” And I thought – wow, so much for wanting to please the other person. All about things on your terms.

        Regarding the Calvinist, I thought Biblical Manhood and Womanhood folks were complementarians? Doesn’t that imply different social roles for men and women, which is far from feminist ideology? I don’t understand the gal’s thinking at all. Like a friend told me, you have to go through a lot of weeds to find a flower. Glad you got your coat and ran.

        • I’m just teasing that woman although she doesn’t read the blog anymore.

        • Monica says:

          I dont agree with the feminist movement at all. Women, and women r gonna hate me for this, were designed to nest … Care for the home, children, husband, pets etc. Whatever is in the home.

          However today, out of necessity, cuz of dead beat fathers, women have had to take on the mans role as well as role of mother.

          I think men need to understand that once a woman has a child, its an inexplicable change of priorities for a woman. I know it was for me. I became ‘mother, absolute defender of my children.’ And its instinctual. Sex becomes a back burner to the children. Not to mention chronic exhaustion, stress, handling finaces (as many men no longer do that today, but women do), and then added stress by a demanding husband. It all takes its toll. And in the end the man will lose as the priority to the child for a woman …. Dare the lion try to touch the cub, he will get a beat down like no other hes ever had. We may be human but we are still ingrained with instincts, raw instincts.

          Men need to undertand this change that happens without us even realizing it. Its instinctual, our roles have changed in life. The key is winning her heart like u did before, which got her to marry u in the first place. And understand the demands of being a mother and all around caretaker. Took mine 2 days to cave cuz he couldnt handle what i do daily for 14 yrs now … Run a business, a home, 5 children, 6 pets, cook meals, homework for 5 (3 hrs a night), dishes, laundry etc. He caved after 2 days and couldnt handle it. Even he was finally too tired to have sex!!! And understood completely at that point.

    • saea says:

      really and what about the wife and her needs for domestic support, affection and appreciation as well. my husband tells me he cannot be affectionate because it makes him want sex so unless he gets sex all the time not affection. this is my biggest thing i am not just a vagina but a woman that you love and cherish. i would like sex but i am a human being not an object . i do not want to be played with like a doll but a woman who enjoys intimacy which means meaningful foreplay with hugging and kissing not lets hurry so i can get my fix. sex is supposed to be fun, enjoyable and being connected not a fix.

      • c says:

        as a woman, when you love a man, I’ve never felt put out, pressured or not wanting to share myself, or needing more from the man…when a woman doesn’t want to be with her man I question whether the love is real, and vise versa. I relate with the men on this board way more than the women. When you really truly love someone, there are no conditions, demands, criteria needed to be fulfilled prior to sharing intimate moments. It drives me nuts and makes me angry to hear these women complain. take the reversal, completely being ignored by your husband before you think you have the right to place expectations on providing for the one you SAY you love, but fail to SHOW you love

      • Monica says:

        For u, had the same problem … I reversed the roles and used him as a toy, immediately got up after sex and said thanks, went about my business like it was no big deal and it was about a week until things changed.

        before hed just walk by and grab my arse or boobs while i was making dinner or whenever, or after sex didnt ‘finish’ for me anyway, and just got up. Funny how when tables are turned, men dont like it as much. And that along with munprevious comment garnered alot of respect and change after 22 yrs.

  3. tommie says:

    John MacArthur and John Piper have excellent sermons on this topic. I like MacArthur’s one best.
    I think I heard Tim Keller’s wife refurring to “jump my bones” sex in a lecture she and Tim Keller gave.
    I think the solution to this problem is that women should be educated about this.

    • Could not agree more. I think there are a ton of things that women should understand about marriage. Not just about the needs of men and children, but economics, politics, apologetics and so on. What are their responsibilities, and how are they preparing themselves to shoulder those repsonsibilities? Is hiking, vacationing, and reading “The Shack” a good preparation for marriage?

    • Doug says:

      My wife refuses to be educated. “that is them and this is us”, she would say. When you have a situation like mine when you have done all you can and not get anything unless she is in agreement then you are in trouble. I am left scratching my head wondering what I did wrong and what next to employ. I am tired of hunting my wife. I am tired of trying to have sexy conversations with her only to have her shut me down. Sometimes I wonder if I married a man simply because of how she thinks and behaves. I am tired of being made to feel bad. I am tired of every excuse being made from the book of excuses. When she says she loves me I struggle to believe her. It is a poor excuse for a marriage if you can’t depend on your spouse for comfort, understanding, appreciation, sexual release. She has no problem if I masturbate. She recommended it. She will even watch sometimes if she is so inclined. I feel less than a man and that is saying a lot. I don’t want condescending sex. I want real loving making. Effort being put in. What is so hard in that. I deserve it. I have worked hard. If I have to work hard for sex from her; be on my p’s and q’s all the time and cross my fingers with the hope that I get some then I don’t want it anymore. I will sit and suffer through this until something happens. If masturbation is the avenue then I will use it until something happens. I can tell you though that I don’t like doing it and makes a marriage redundant if I have to satisfy myself sexually. By the way, she knows that I hate doing it and how it makes me feel. She hasn’t addressed it so I figure she doesn’t care.

    • saea says:

      another oh really read proverbs5 ;19-20 its interesting that it says to enjoy the love of your wife which means you must love her and she will respond to your love it is not about a woman being educated it is about being loved. how do i know i have been married 25 years to an abusive man. he has told me my job is to sit on the man yet what was his job he was not supportive of my dreams or goals. when i have been sick and ill he treated me like an a pain for him. one time i got so ill i went blind for 4 days and could hardly walk he would not even take me to the hospital now that is a man who loves his wife. sorry. but he wants you to be his personal prostitute sorry it doesnt work that way. love me and i will love back, abuse me you will slowing kill me!!

  4. Mara says:

    Wintery: “Yeah, did you read the comment by lwaysright? This is the standard reaction to moral obligations – blame men. It’s a constant drumbeat.”

    Guess you are oblivious to the constant drumbeat of blame the woman when the marriage fails.

    This is taken from a guest blog post by a woman who followed the church’s teaching on submission perfectly and didn’t divorce her husband. Not only was she not protected by her churches headship teaching, when her husband abandoned her, she was blamed.

    PlainJane: “One of the things that hurt most during this ordeal was the response of my church in particular and the greater Church in general. My church chose to make my husband the leader of their new singles’ ministry. There was a lot of stigma, and it was humiliating. People wondered (sometimes aloud) what I had done to make my husband reject our beautiful little girl. People didn’t buy the story of a headship/submission relationship that wasn’t destroyed by some sin on the part of the wife.”

    Here is the entire story.

    http://thecommandmentsofmen.blogspot.com/2010/12/what-you-dont-know-guest-post-by.html#more

    I only bring it up to bring balance to your knee jerk reaction that the man is always blamed. Not so. Not in many groups.

    I’m not saying that men aren’t falsely blamed sometimes. I am say that it is wrong to say that is is always the men who are falsely blamed.

    • Retha says:

      Mara, I experience the same thing: Men who percieve that the world is against them and they are usually falsely blamed, and then are ever ready to blame women even before knowing the true nature of a situation.
      (I experienced it from a young age: My dad rightly or wrongly believed his father always chose his sister’s side, so he himself did not make the mistake of choosing his daughter’s side: In any quarrel, whenever my brothers broke my toys, stole my sweets, etc. he always chose their side.)

      • What caused the woman to marry that man, and what process did she follow to vet him for the role of marriage?

        • Mara says:

          Way to go Wintery.
          Never question the doctrine because you feel it is flawless.
          Always question the woman.
          You demonstrate perfectly: Always blame the woman. Always.
          It is always the woman’s fault, with you.
          Then you whine about men being blamed once in a while. Whatever.

          You refuse to see that the doctrine is flawed.
          And you so worship the doctine, you don’t care how many women are sacrificed on the alter of that doctrine.
          The doctrine must be upheld no matter how many women are destroyed by it.

          The problem is that your doctrine works only with nearly perfect people.

          My doctrine works with imperfect people. People who married before they became Christian. People who came from lousy homes of origin with warped views of what marriage and sex is about, etc.

          Yours doesn’t work in those cases and in fact, it sometimes adds fuel to the fire, which demonstrates that your doctrine is part of the problem.

          • I don’t think the doctrine should be applied for men who haven’t been tested by clever women and their involved fathers.

          • Mara says:

            Oh yeah.
            I forgot about the loophole doctrine in your doctrine.
            My doctrine doesn’t need a loophole.

    • It is not that men are Always blamed, it’s that men are blamed a Majority of the time.

  5. Retha says:

    I’ve been wondering: If a Christian woman withold sex pre-marriage, is she not sending out the message that she does not care about male needs? I think that is the impression that men get of me, and other post-30 virgins.

    • If a Christian woman withholds sex pre-marriage, the message she sends is that she is honoring God. If a man sees it differently, it’s because he sees her as nothing but a plaything. If a man thinks a woman should have sex before marriage, he is showing no respect for her.

      • I have talked to men who have a lot of sexual experience, and what they say is that they do not consider women who give up sex before marriage to be marriage material. Women think that they can have sex like a man and that this will result in a permanent marriage and lifelong bliss. It’s a kind of madness that seems to be popular on college campuses. Acting like a slut will somehow result in a marriage to a virgin Prince charming.

        I once knew a Biblical Manhood and Womanhood Calvinist woman who asked me what would happen if we got married and she had an affair. I told her that the marriage would be over immediately. She was surprised. She could not believe that anyone could fault her or hold her accountable for breaking her vows, or that she had any duties to anyone but herself in the marriage. Everyone else was just supposed to “adjust” to her adultery. She also thought that drinking and partying was a natural part of marriage. I have more to say about her, but I don’t want to give her identity away. Suffice to say that having children would not have stopped her career one iota.

        • lwayswright says:

          Wow, I’m feeling a bit ganged up on by all these men on here!! Maybe that’s part of the problem…women don’t appreciate being ganged up on. And, I don’t think withholding sex as punishment is a good choice, however, if a woman feels hurt in her relationship, or uncared for the first thing to go out the door is sex. You discussed masturbating to get rid of the tension.. And that’s another issue. Women are relational. They equate sex to relationship and emotion, not as a tension reliever. A nd possibly, even if you are ” doing’ things in the marriage, maybe the relationship isn’t there relationally, emotionally. Or maybe there is a physical reason the woman is not in the mood. That is where communicating without pressure comes into play! But, in marriage, like on this blog, women don’t appreciate being ganged up on…it doesn’t make men look better!

          • Rick in Denver says:

            Hold on Iwayswright..you have 2 topics going on. Nobody is “ganging up on your” and 2 – You feeling “ganged up on” has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You are making an odd connection there.
            Again. I am convinced that many counselors and women like yourself think men are just boneheads when it comes to a woman’s emotional needs. I guess my kids would say, “duh” (as if we men never thought of it…)
            Of course it’s highly likely that there is lack of emotional connection. Yeah. got that. Thought of it. dealt with it. Understood it, covered it. responded to it. Listen to her heart, her feelings, respond, etc.
            And it makes NO difference in the sexual arena.
            BUT…I noticed that you make the same mistake most women (and counselors) make: OF COURSE- it’s almost always blamed on the man.
            That response is getting WAY overused. I am glad this forum exposes that victim nonsense from woman.
            How about this for simplicity: The woman simply looks at the marriage for “what’s in it for her.” So if she is “not in the mood” so what? ignore it.
            The root problem: Women (and men too) believing the marriage is ABOUT THEM and FOR THEM. I focus on pleasing my wife. She does not have the same mindset. THAT IS the problem.

        • …they think that they can ‘have sex like a man.’

          I’m sorry, I forgot that we still live in the 1950’s, and men are allowed and encouraged to go to ‘gentleman’s clubs’ and entitle themselves to sex, however meaningless, objectifying women to make themselves feel like they’re still the superior sex after women became more independent financially. MEN can have all the sex they want…as long as they don’t plan on marrying the girl. If you’re trying to make men appear as saintly in their marriages, you may want to use better wording.

          I’ve read dozens and dozens of your comments on this, and they’re complete chauvenistic nonsense. Before telling women that they need to ‘understand men’ and their needs, please do remember that outside of the dark ages, women are people too, and without a man’s desire to ‘understand them’ that there is absolutely no incentive to do the same for him.

      • Glenn, this is great philosophy, but when it comes to practical it could be a big mistake if a man and a woman don’t do sex before marriage. Look at all the complaints on this list. Not every man is good for every woman, and visa-versa. To assume sex after marriage will be lovely could be a big mistake. To have a good marriage –and sex is about half of that– you’d want to check it out before hand, otherwise there is a a good chance you would be doomed to an unhappy existence.

        • Monica says:

          Ok, can’t find the reply to ‘Patricia’s’ comment. But we don’t need to ‘sleep’ with a lot of partners before marriage. That’s what marriage is for to begin with!!! Come together naive and grow sexually together and learn each other’s bodies as it’s intended it to be. To ‘become one flesh’ through the act.

          The majority of all relationship problems stems from one partner comparing to the quantities of partners they had before. That is not love that is lust and it has no place in a godly union.

          So trying on all the shoes before u think you’ve picked the pair you like won’t last decades. Cuz once it becomes stale and boring and worn out you will simply seek a new pair of shoes.

          God is much smarter than we are, and there’s a reason for celibacy before marriage …. So there is no comparison and u grow and learn with the one you love and committed too wholeheartedly.

        • People shouldn’t assume sex will automatically be wonderful when they get married. I agree with that part. But the answer isn’t premarital sex.

          You see, a person’s sexuality isn’t a static thing. You aren’t a puzzle piece that can only fit with one other puzzle piece sexually. You don’t need to make sure you fit sexually with the other person before the wedding. Your sexuality changes as you grow together with your spouse. You get good at sex as you practice together, as long as you both have the right attitude about sex and are willing to work at together (which you can determine without having premarital sex).

          Sex might not be great on your wedding night if you wait until then. So what? You have years and years to get good at it together. Sex isn’t about performing for each other. It’s about growing together, being a team together, and sharing the love you have for each other.

    • J says:

      Good point. I’m sure the traditional answer would talk about context of appropriate time and place etc.etc.

      Relationally, you reap what you sow and non-intimate, non-sexual relationships are difficult to turn into successful marital relationships in a first world 21st century context.

      • The 21st century world is no different than any other century in this context. One should develop a non-sexual, non-intimate relationship first; that is the only way one can learn about the other person. Sex distracts from learning who the person really is inside. Sex is based on appearances, and if that is all a relationship is based on, the marriage will suffer once the woman has borne a few kids and has lost her figure, or suffers from breast cancer and ends up losing them. Sex, intimacy should NEVER be the basis of a relationship without marriage first. If someone can’t be your best friend without sex, then marrying that person won’t help it. If you need to try out sex with the person first, all it proves is that you aren’t interested in the person.

        • What I have found is that women are willing to get into sex to “catch” a man because all other ways of appealing to a man are closed to them, because of their belief in feminism.

          What they can do is this: 1) get good grades in fields unrelated to mothering and wifing, 2) make tons of money in soft government-funded fields like teaching and social services, 3) get breast implants and drink a lot of alcohol.

          What they can’t do, because of feminism, is this: 1) be pro-life, 2) be pro-family, 3) be pro-guns, 4) be pro-male, 5) accept sex roles, 6) focus on raising children, 7) be chaste, which is required for marital stability by men and women, 8) court on substance, not fun, 9) be serious about the challenges to marriage posed by socialism and secularism, 10) study apologetics, 11) be for small government, 12) be for lower taxes, 13) be for all-male schools and male teachers, 14) be for male-oriented curricula, 15) and so on.

          Basically, they want to undermine marriage and parenting with everything they believe and do, then get married and have children. It’s the Bridget Jones fantasy. Drink alcohol, have hook-ups, get pregnant, have abortions, be courted by a chaste chivalrous Prince, marry in a big ceremony with vows she has no learned ability or intention of honoring, live happily ever after – as though drinking and pre-marital sex were sensible prerequisites for managing a home and having stable relationships with husbands and children.

          • Retha says:

            Wintery, being pro-life obviously mean to be anti-choice.

            And being pro-gun means to be anti gun restriction laws.

            What does pro-man mean then? Being anti-woman? Because in that case, I am neither pro-man nor pro-woman. Both sexes are important, and should be treated justly. I should love my neighbour wether the neighbour is male or female, and care for his/ her needs as much as mine.

            Are you in favor of male oriented curricula for boys to study, or is that what every kid of either sex should be limited to from grade 1 onward? A world where girls’ potential and gifts are undermined because everything is geared towards boys is as bad as the opposite.

            Should men be treated justly? Yes. Should boys have every opportunity to do well in school? Yes. Should men reach their full potential? Yes. Do I defend men in my conversations? Yes. But this is not pro-man, per implication anti-woman. Since women should also be treated justly, girls should also have the opprtunity to do well in school, women should also reach their full potential, and I also defend women in my conversations.

            Stories like the one you recently placed of the girls with a good dad and bad mother, kept away from the father because of ugly prejudices, are shockingly unjust. But stories like the one Mara linked to yesterday of the lowly-qualified-because-she-believed-in-submission-and-male-provision woman driven from her home when he got a mistress, and then was blamed by her church for his leaving her unprovided for, is also unjust.

      • lwayswright says:

        If you are not getting out of your marriage what you want then end it! I’m not blaming men, any more then you are blaming women! I was in my marriage for life, or so I thought, I gave emotionally, physically, all of it, and he still cheated!!!! So, people are human, men and women are different and need sex for different reasons!!!

        • wbmoore says:

          Nothing can be done for the Christian who is obedient.

          • lwayswright says:

            Even obedient Christians are human, fail and sin!!! No one is perfect, not men and not women. We all just do the best we can and pray that god gets us through this life till we are with him!!!

          • wbmoore says:

            Yes, We all fall and sin. But we should strive for obedience to God and what HE has told us. There is no recourse for an obedient Christian if he (or she) is in a marriage where the other partner does not meet their responsibilities – regardless of whether its in bed or elsewhere.

    • No, and there is a way to get around that. There are good books on sex written by Christians for Christians, and you should explain that you have read these books, and that you are aware of male needs and how to be good at sex. It’s not something to really talk about, but it is something that women ought to know so that men are at ease. Also, try to let the man lead you in other areas like physical fitness and sports. You show him that you are going to be sexually warm by caring about what he thinks about your appearance and working out. I had one woman photograph her meals and send them to me. That works really well to reassure me that she understands that although I am a virgin, I am still a man. Another woman (that bad Calvinist) had very frank discussions with me about sex and male nature.

    • Mary says:

      Retha, I would echo Glenn’s comment that men who expect you to give them sex before marriage are ungodly, disrespectful, and entirely unsuitable for marriage. In addition, if they think that withholding sex before marriage means you won’t care for their needs in marriage then they are stupid. Withholding sex from men to whom you are not married is how you show that you will have self-control for faithfulness in marriage, and it also means that you can keep the gift of your body to give to your husband on your wedding night as a unique wedding present. If he doesn’t get how that is a special thing, he’s not worth your attentions.

  6. I think there is another thing that men forget: foreplay should take place long before the bedroom. Helping around the house, doing the dishes, helping kids with homework, opening doors, helping her in and out of a car, etc. All things that show a woman she has the security she needs: a husband who will be there for her and her kids no matter what. A husband who treats his wife like a room-mate and does nothing to help around the house can’t expect an exhausted and ignored wife to be ready to bedded.

    • Yes, I agree with that, but don’t mention that because I want to keep the focus on women. Every sensible man is well aware of these things they have to do and they all do them. It’s the women who need to be reminded about all the duties they neglect, because they blame men too much.

      • kuu says:

        My biggest problem here is that you are neglecting the male side of things when erring grievances. It’s possible men might be doing things that they think are what their wife wants/needs, but if they just assume this and don’t communicate, they might be putting your efforts in the entirely wrong direction. And then not understand why she’s upset. Assuming these problems are “all her fault” and “she’s being mean”, because they are helping may make them miss easy ways to fix the problem, or close them off to fixing the problem. For example, you may be helping, but it might not be the help she wants/needs. You might be doing something she feels completely capable of, but not doing the thing she hates doing or feels like she needs the most help with. And that’s nobody’s fault, that just needs to be communicated. But if you assume you’re taking care of all her needs and that doesn’t need to be talked about, that will likely create a problem.

        For example, in my case, if husband cleans the entire kitchen and bathroom, does the laundry, but leaves the dishes in the sink for me to do, I will be much less happy than if he left the kitchen and bathroom for me to clean, and the laundry for me to do and washed the dishes. (I hate washing dishes.)

        To him, the first case results in him doing more work (and putting in more time) and me being less happy. The second results in less work and me being more happy. But if he assumes that he’s taken care of my needs by cleaning the kitchen and bathroom and doing the laundry, he would be bewildered at me being upset that I still have to do the dishes, even though he kindly eliminated other tasks for me. And if we never communicated about how we both felt, we would probably both be frustrated.

        Communication is the most important part of a marriage. Communicating needs, expectations, fears, frustrations, etc. Communicating grievances about sex may be difficult. Talking about how you feel (unloved? immasculated? afraid she’ll leave you or you’re not good enough?) can be hard. Figuring out how you feel can be hard. But it’s important. If you genuinely knew her and she was loving during your early marriage, chances are something happened and neither of you talked about it (or even knew it was a problem). She didn’t turn into a monster, she isn’t trying to punish you. And she’d probably be surprised if you said you felt that way and try to figure out what was wrong.

        If you just assume she doesn’t love you and is withholding sex from you on purpose, you’re going to miss out on fixing the real problems and setting straight the miscommunications.

    • kuu says:

      Agreed, Glenn. Also, acting like you are both still courting one another (tiny gifts (like flowers) or occasional notes – both ways) definitely helps. I think when you know each others love languages and are both willing to give, the initmacy will flourish.

  7. Mara says:

    Now, about the denying sex thing.

    It is a two way street.
    Usually a woman shouldn’t deny.
    But there are a lot to things men shouldn’t do but do anyway because they refuse to understand how women think and act.

    Also, realize, that sex is now being viewed as a need as strong as a need for food and water. It is not. It is a very strong drive that shouldn’t be ignored. But it is not a physical need. It is, rather, a need for the relationship.

    What’s the difference, many might ask thinking that I’m splitting hairs.
    Well, once it goes from being a need for the relationship to being a need like food or sleep, it takes on some bad qualities. It becomes an addiction that the wife is pressured into meeting which causes a wedge between husband and wife.
    Like a drug addiction, it is used as a coping strategy or a way to calm down so a man can sleep, like alcohol.
    When it crosses this line and becomes an addiction for the husband rather filling a need for the relationship and closeness, it causes resentment, making the wife feel used.

    I’m all for meeting the needs of the relationship and even meeting the needs of the individuals in the relationship. But there is a line that can be crossed.
    Porn is often involved in this line crossing, but not always.

    Also, Wintery, I am uncomfortable with you equating a man going to work with a woman giving him sex. It sounds too much like a sex for food or prostitution thing. I know you don’t mean it that way. I just caution you about using that analogy. I’d say, if a woman doesn’t work outside the home, then her taking care of the children and the house and laundry and feeding people is her obligation to the relationship. Sex is in another catagory. Instead of looking upon it as an ‘obligation’, I think it is healthier for women to look upon it as a way of loving back the man who loves her.
    Splitting hairs again, some might say. But I don’t think so.

    • I think that having a man have to go to work is an unhealthy addiction. Women can develop a need for it in order to be able to sleep. It causes resentment in men. A man should only do whatever he feels like moment to moment. I think that a man should never do anything unless he feels happy about doing it.

      I am joking of course.

      • Mara says:

        I thought you understood.
        I do think women should have sex with their husbands even if they don’t feel like it, as an act of loving and giving.

        But you have to realize that sex addiction is a real issue and is destroying many marriages including Christian ones. Unhealthy attitudes about sex abound on all sides.

        Pat answers saying a wife should never tell her husband “no” are dangerous and just as destructive as women using sex to manipulate or thinking it’s all about when she is in the mood.
        I’m trying to balance out what you are saying and make it healthy, not negate it.
        All things in moderation.
        Food, sleep, sex.

        If you disagree with that, perhaps you should join the Shakers for a while.

        You know. Sometimes men DO stay home from work and take a sick day. So what?
        Sometimes a woman is over the top tired and needs a sick day. So what?
        Stop acting like I’m trying to keep things from you and all men.

        In a healthy relationship where the husband has a higher libido, they will be having sex more often than what the wife wants. That’s fine if everything is in order and it’s an expression of his love rather than him just getting his jollies after looking at inappropriate pictures or demanding things kinky things from her that makes her feel demeaned.

    • wgbutler777 says:

      My take on Mara’s comment:

      What I’m hearing her say is, “yeah sure, sex is kinda important but men basically suck and if woman decides that man is getting too addicted or doesn’t properly value the emotional aspect of the relationship (i.e. think like a female) she should start turning him down to modify his behavior and ween him off his addiction…”

      Now let’s see what the Bible says:

      I Corinthians 7

      2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5DO NOT DEPRIVE EACH OTHER EXCEPT BY MUTUAL CONSENT AND FOR A TIME, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again SO THAT SATAN WILL NOT TEMPT YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR LACK OF SELF-CONTROL.

      Proverbs 5
      18Let your fountain be blessed,
      and REJOICE in the wife of your youth,
      19 a lovely deer, a graceful doe.
      LET HER BREASTS FILL YOU AT ALL TIMES WITH DELIGHT; be intoxicated ALWAYS in her love.
      20 Why should you be intoxicated, my son, with a forbidden woman and embrace the bosom of an adulteress?

      Wintery, I beg you, if you get married PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE marry a woman who understands men’s sexual natures and believes in God’s commands on marital sex. You are going to be in a world of hurt if you marry a woman who uses sex to punish or manipulate. It’s going to be hell on earth.

      I have been in both situations. My first wife used sex as a tool to manipulate. As a married man who (occasionally) got to have sex whenever my wife felt like it, I was MUCH more susceptible to sexual temptation than I was as a celibate single Christian man. Thank God I never gave in to the sin of adultery, but I came EXTREMELY close.

      My new wife understands that sex is how a man feels and expresses love. She takes this extremely seriously and goes out of her way to be sexually aggressive and constantly initiate sex with me. Whenever I want to have to sex, she nearly always complies, even when she is not in the mood. As a result, sexual temptation has basically become a non-issue. I have no desire (or sexual energy) to look at pornography, masturbate, or think about an affair with someone else.

      This is extremely important, Wintery. Don’t get married unless you can find a wife who understands how God designed men.

      • “Wintery, I beg you, if you get married PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE marry a woman who understands men’s sexual natures and believes in God’s commands on marital sex. You are going to be in a world of hurt if you marry a woman who uses sex to punish or manipulate. It’s going to be hell on earth.

        […]This is extremely important, Wintery. Don’t get married unless you can find a wife who understands how God designed men.”

        I’m hearing this loud and clear, WG. I know how you feel about your new wife as well, and so I have seen for myself how your wife has affected your life. She is indeed a great blessing!

      • Mara says:

        WG, you missed my point all together.
        Please reread.
        If you ever ministered to women who have been married to sex addicts or men who stumbled into porn later in marriage you wouldn’t be so freaking flippant.

        I’m warning against tying a woman’s arms. I’m warning against taking away her right to ever say “No”. Women in marriages, both Christian, and otherwise deal with sexual abuse which involves men wanting to get into S&M and all other manner of crap.

        At the same time, I know sex is important and should be engaged in liberally.
        And I can’t find where I ever implied otherwise.

        I wish you would hear what I’m saying and stop judging me through your own bad experiences.

        I’m fully aware of the verses you give. I’m also fully aware of the abuse of those verses, abuse you are unaware of and don’t want to face or deal with.

        • Mara, I think that you and WG are extremely helpful for scaring the opposite sex about two things they should be avoiding: women who don’t understand men because they haven’t read anything about male sexual nature, and women who try to apply the Bible to men who are sick, twisted predators!

          I have an idea. I think that we should insist that women read a good book on husbands (Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands) and a good book on sex (A Celebration of Sex).

          And for men, the problem is more difficult. I think it will take serious courting technique and involvement of the fathers. In fact, I think that the process should be long, drawn out and involve interviews with former girlfriends, resume, investment portfolio, and so on. For a women to consent to marriage is such a big step that it really requires careful evaluation of men. With all the nasty stuff going around these days, men have to be checked carefully.

          • I don’t know how us common sense people were able to figure out everything by just the use of the Bible without all those other books.

          • I think they are reading the Bible more for comfort and entertainment today – to “feel good”, rather than to gain wisdom and get marching orders.

          • Mary says:

            Wintery, I agree entirely on the concept of rational, analytical courting methodologies. On your book recommendation, PCFH sounds like a very good idea, but the sex book not so much. I would think it would be very unhelpful to a single person in the area of mental chastity. There’s plenty of time after marriage to read such things.

          • The sex book is written by a Christian expert for married Christians.

          • Rick in Denver says:

            I am 53. And in all my years (and 2 marriages) here is the line that comes from Counselors and WAY too many ministers.
            1) MOST of the problems in marriage are to be blamed on the man
            2) He just needs to be kinder, sweeter, nicer and serve and love and cherish his wife (I agree)… and of course the wife will ALWAYS respond in kind with more lover, more sex etc.
            3) The woman? well, the woman? uh… well, she just needs to be understood and she should….uh.. well SEE #2 …that will work.
            dumb. No it won’t work. It’s time for the church to wake up…
            There is a problem with women. (don’t get me wrong…MEN do not get off the hook.) It’s just the 90% of the focus is on MEN changing (becoming more feminine?) while all but ignoring women and the extreme hurt they can bring to a marriage….
            I finally woke up to that. Ditched the “nice guy” I had been… and demanded that my wife grow up and start learning that marriage was NOT all about her demanding her way, and withholding sex.
            Not to be vindictive BUT stopped the nice behavior. and it really infuriated her…
            after 3 months, she FINALLY started actually treating me with some respect.
            Counselors, churches..wake up. There is a woman problem in the church.

  8. Rose says:

    Thank you for posting this blog. What I have to say is more than likely, not going to be very popular with the other women who have posted, and I want to give a brief bit of background information. I have been married twice. In both marriages, I was the leader. I was the leader spiritually, financially, emotionally, intellectually (and that isn’t saying a lot), and physically. Both of my ex-husbands wanted me to be the one to always initiate the sex and they had this desire for ME to be in charge. I am a very independent woman and in every area, I took the lead, except (as much as either of them would have enjoyed for me to) in the bedroom. Now that I am not in either marriage and I have had the opportunity to look back, I can safely tell you that being in a leadership position is NOT where I was created to be. I honestly feel that God created woman FOR man. In Genesis 2:20-22 we see these words: “ But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib[l] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.” It is very clear in that scripture that WOMAN was created to be MAN’s helper. Before I go any further, I want to state for the record that I know that above all, our purpose is to glorify God and to build God’s Kingdom, and I do take that very seriously. I do not worship the man in my life, but I feel that my purpose, after the Kingdom work, is to please the man God has blessed in my life.
    I am in a new relationship that is above and beyond the answers to all of my prayers. I have taken a vow of abstinence and that vow is not only honored, but expected of me. This man is a wonderful Christian man and has the need to be the leader in the home. For me, having a man who leads is not just a want or desire, but a NEED. We have discussed the very topic of your blog and I strongly feel that there is NO reason that after he is my husband, he should be told no to sex. My greatest pleasure, as a woman, is making him happy, pleasing him, and I feel more alive, more cherished, more protected than I have ever felt in my life. Paul gives us very clear on how we are to treat each other, as a married couple, sexually and why. (1 Corinthians 7:3-5: The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.) This scripture relates in clear understanding that the ONLY reason either husband or wife should “deprive” each other is when it is mutual (meaning both agree) and for devoting yourselves to prayer. This doesn’t say that we deprive our husbands because we aren’t in the mood. Perhaps if a woman isn’t in the mood, then she should explain this to her husband and they could take time to pray that together for understanding and for an agreement.
    Sex is an emotional thing for both men and women, but our emotions are different. As maturing Christian adults, we should be able to recognize that about each other and communicate with our spouses what we feel and think. I am so glad that, in our relationship, we are taking the time, before hand, to relay those feelings, those insights about each other. We have found ways, even before we are married to practice and discuss him being the leader. Some of the things we have incorporated (even in our different homes) are:
    * I discuss decisions with him before I make them. He listens to what I have to say, we discuss it, and he gives me his opinion. I have not found a time, yet, that I didn’t see things his way after we discussed them and prayed about them;
    *I know what his tastes are as far as clothing and even though he has not “insisted”, I find myself wearing the things I know he would like or approve of, and it makes me feel wonderful to know I am doing something to please him;
    *We discuss financial matters and have begun to set up our future budget to have the same goal of paying off debts in our sights.
    *We are both teachers of God’s Word, but he still teaches me so much and helps me keep my focus on the woman God has created me to be. Likewise, he expects me to respectfully let him know if he is making decisions or acting in a manner that is not glorifying God.
    As I see Eph. 5:22-33, A man may not always “feel like” submitting to God’s will, but it isn’t an option, it isn’t a request, it is a command. Husbands may not always feel like loving their wives, but again, it is a command. Wives may not always “feel like” submitting to their husbands or the Lord, but it doesn’t say “submit when you feel like it.” This again, is not given as an option, it isn’t a request, it is a command, “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.”
    For me, and I know that most women will not agree, I think the idea of being available to my husband whenever he wants me is a very sexy, very exciting, very natural thing. I also believe that if I am available to him anytime he feels the desire for me, then when I have a desire for him, that need will also be fulfilled. According to WintryKnights reply, in today’s society, I am a minority. I go against the grain, and that is where I know I belong. I AM pro-life, pro-family, pro-guns (and I hunt and fish, too), pro-male, accept sex roles, focus on raising children, am chaste, court on substance, (and I must respectfully disagree on the fun statement because we have had a blast getting to really know each other), am very serious about the challenges to marriage posed by socialism and secularism, study apologetics (we actually do this together and discuss it, I am for small government, small business, small education, small taxes, males teaching males and females teaching female, and so on.
    In the past, I think I have wanted that Prince Charming or Knight (no offense, Wintry) to come riding in to save the day. The more I have grown and thought about it, I am under the impression that arranged marriages are not such a bad thing. I feel like my Father, the King of all Kings, has arranged a marriage for His princess. He has let me know that I don’t need a prince or a knight, but I need someone with KINGLY characteristics, someone who can lead, someone who can rule, someone who can follow HIS lead and be an example to me and our family.
    In submitting, to my “future King”, he has made it very clear that he does not want a doormat. He wants a woman who has an opinion and doesn’t mind sharing it, and he has to know that I can make the right decisions for our family on a whim when he may not be there to help in those decisions. He has to know that he can trust me to be a portrait of what a Christian woman looks like, to his children. His sons need to know what God’s word says about submission and so does his daughter. What better way to teach them than through our example.
    I have found so much freedom in submission. I am truly happy in a relationship for the first time in my life and I look very forward to our future together as his wife to bring him all of the desires of his heart, his mind, and his body!!
    In Christ,
    Rose

    • Well, I’m right with you. I agree completely. And let me also say that if I knew a woman with an attitude to men and marriage like yours, I would not make one single demand on you that you were not OK with. I think that a man who was partnered up with a woman like you would basically slay any dragon, walk over any hot coals, and pluck any star from the sky, if that’s what you wanted from him. If you were single, and you said these things to me, I would immediately begin courting you for the purpose of marrying you.

      I think I’m going to just proclaim you as the perfect woman. Thank you for writing this comment. I am actually very annoyed by women who expect men to like them who will not make statements like this. Given the current situation with the areas that you mentioned, (education, taxes, etc.), a man would have to be CRAZY to get married. And most women have no idea what men are facing. The standard approach to attracting men seems to be immodesty and sex. But that will not work on good men. What works is a passionate statement like yours. Now obviously you are going to have to vet this man like crazy before giving the lead role in the relationship – so please make sure you do that. But I have a feeling that you know this and are willing to take the responsibility for making a good decision. The time to check the man to see if he can handle being the quarterback is before the marriage. Test him every way you can – insist on seeing evidence that he can do the job of protecting, providing and moral/spiritual leading. Don’t marry someone who hasn’t demonstrated that he can fulfill his obligations.

      I am only kidding about the fun. I only say that to surprise and thwart men and women who think that relationships should be about fun. You have as much fun as you want.

    • Huron5822 says:

      You know basically its just a load of crap.. Then when the man cheats he is wrong.. Masturbation is a ” so- called” sin! And begging will not be me.. Women use sex as a control.. It doesn’t work on me.. Little do they know the true desires of a man are not limited to sex with them only. The mind is a beast and when a husband ends up resentful of his wife, it’s a bad place to be.. Sadly women waste the best years of their life in this manner.. Sex makes a man come home, sex makes $$ flow, sex creates a bond of appreciation towards the wife.. It’s not that deep.. It’s not to be over analyzed.. Those who are so cavalier in telling husbands to grin and bare it are funny.. Until they are pushed to the limits of there desires being taken lightly.. I wish men had such luxury of taking time outs in providing, protecting, leading, serving.. The church is divided between men who have learned to play not Gods game but the game to keep the peace. I don’t believe men of standard can bow to such tactics just for sex.. Because secretly the wife knows its a power trip to control such a dynamic in marriage.

  9. Rose says:

    I can assure you I am far from perfect, and just pray that with God’s guidance (and of course, that of my “leader”) I can continue to grow closer in my walk with HIM. Thank you for the comment, and while I may hunt and fish, I still tear up when nice things are said.
    Rose

    • Mara says:

      Rose, I’ve been on the other end of it in one marriage.
      I whole heartedly sent my husband to Promise Keepers with his brother.
      They told him he MUST take authority in his marriage. We got along just fine before that as partners. I wasn’t the leader, nor did I want to be the leader. But I sure as heck didn’t want him to come home and “take authority” over me. I didn’t send him to Promise Keepers so he could be told to expect resistence from me on this but continue down the path of taking authority because it is God’s divine order and the creation order, etc. It took our relationship from happy and decent into a battle ground with him intent on winning rather than getting along or loving me.

      I’m not promoting women as leaders of marriages.
      I’m promoting partnership.
      It was not good for the man to be alone. We are social beings who need connections to other human beings. Marriage and sex is just one of many connections.

      I’d go crazy in a relationship where my spouse wanted me to lead all the time too. But I know the hell of being a relationship where the husband is told he ‘must’ be the leader when he was perfectly fine being a partner and we each gave into the other fairly equally. I don’t know if it was exactly evenly because we didn’t keep tabs because it wasn’t that big of a deal to us.

      I view that it is the job of each spouse to know the needs, desires, and preferences of the other and to do what is fair and right towards one another on all levels. It’s never right to dump all the responsibility for that on one partner.

      And sweetie. I hate to say this, but there are a bunch of women who have made kings out of their husbands and fathers because they were told that the Bible said they are supposed to do it. Now they are coming out of that movement broken and wounded and some questioning their very faith because they were taught if they didn’t make husband/daddy king and center their lives around him, they would go to hell.

      I could give you link after link after link of these broken and devastated women but won’t. Few from here go to visit them anyway because they don’t want to know about it. They like living in their romantice little bubble oblivious to the turmoil their doctrine really brings.

      • wbmoore says:

        The problem with marriages where the man dictates is not leadership. Its is a lack of love and other fruits of the spirit each person who claims to love God should manifest.

        Each parter must seek God and HIS will in their lives. Each partner must submit to God. And, in my mind, to each other. I say that because its what scripture teaches in Ephesians 5:21 “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” The husband is still the head of the family, but if his wife comes to him and says he is not acting in love or is not being responsible, he needs to consider it and pray and submit to her in this issue if she is right – confess and repent and adjust.

        I’ve seen lots of broken marriages in this culture because of abuse by the man or by the woman.

        Ultimately, it all boils down to sin – unconfessed, unrepented, unadulterated sin.

        We are to eschew sin and embrace God and His love and love God and others. When we dont do that, marriage does not work.

        • Yeah, in a real sense, the courtship is about a man demonstrating how he is able to get buy-in from a woman without dictating to her and bossing her around. And actually, the woman has to be the kind of woman who responds to being led. For example, I send books to women and wait for them to read them and talk about them.

          I think the dictatorial problem is mostly the man having no idea how to persuade, and also that the woman has never been tested to see if she is curious. I like engineer women best because they understand how to solve problems. If you present anything to an engineer woman as problem solving, she doesn’t resist because she is used to problem solving. Also, she is good at thinking of better solutions than I can think up, so it’s a bonus. Engineer women are more ready to agree with rules, boundaries and being serious about the obstacles that a marriage will face. It’s because they read Fred Brooks, software design methodology and design patterns. They have the idea that life is an engineering problem and they want to solve it.

          • wbmoore says:

            I would say that if a woman does not want to be led, she wont be. Period. No discussion. But to me, that speaks volumes of her desire to obey God and her fear/trust of man.

            Some men dictate because they do not have communication skills, yes. But some do it because of fear or anger. Either way, that’s not true leadership.

            Men are called to emulate Jesus – the only time we see Him dictate was when He spoke against sin. He said how things would be, but he TAUGHT as he did so. Sometimes in clear ways and sometimes not so clear. But He was always the servant leader. He led from a humble attitude (not meek), or so it seems to me.

            Women are also called to emulate Jesus – they must submit to God and to their husband, so long as its not a sin. You dont see that much in this culture. In fact, you see lots of women have all kinds of reasons and excuses not to do so. Much of it well reasoned. But that doesnt mean it is right.

          • WB, the problem I am having these days is that I am encountering a lot of Christian women who think that women are entitled to do anything they want in order to find happiness, including break all moral rules, and then demand that the world somehow adjust so that they get the happiness they want on their own terms. When good men try to setup boundaries and predict probabilities of achieving outcomes, we are dismissed and even taken to court to be overruled. It is a nightmare. I might as well try to herd cats.

            I have Christian women telling me all the time that God will forgive them for breaking moral rules and that their lives will someone work out. It doesn’t help when pastors like Mark Driscoll think that it is the job of men to avoid holding women accountable, and instead to just accomodate them in their will to be happy by any means necessary. That clip I played a while back where the woman was complaining that the man she was sleeping with was not marrying her was the last straw for me. Driscoll made a big show of his ability to force the man to somehow stop having sex with her and marry her. What a joke! She chose this guy as he was, and now she is trying to force him to act like something he isn’t. There are a million good guys she passed over and Driscoll never blamed her for the decision to have pre-marital sex with the wrong guy. It’s her own fault for choosing him and choosing to have sex with him without making him marry first. Women can’t make men commit by having sex with them.

            The impression that I am getting here is that women want to retain the ability to behave in a self-centered way with no accountability, but they want men to act morally and to be held accountable. This is a nightmare scenario for a man, and one that should be avoided at all costs. I have actually met “Christian” women who refused to be bound by their own promises who then complained that non-Christian men were not acting like Christians. The double standard is just breathtaking.

          • wbmoore says:

            I agree that women tend to want their candy and eat it too. :)

            I appreciate your desire to call people on their double standards. Thank you for that.

            Its hard to believe that Christians of either gender would be surprised when non-Christians dont respond as a Christian SHOULD, but I have seen it with my own eyes.

            I always tell people to not expect pigs to fly, but to expect them to wallow in the mud. The same is true for people of the opposite gender and non-Christians and nominal Christians. They will not be consistent in their world-view nor their morality.

            Sinners will sin – imagine that. Children will be children – surprise. Men will be men and women will be women. If you dont hold people to a higher standard, if you dont have boundaries and require that people observe them, then they wont.

      • I wouldn’t recommend Promise Keepers to any Christian because of their ecumenical, scrambled-doctrinal stance.

      • rosethorns1 says:

        Mara, I appreciate your reply and I am sorry that you felt your marriage was upended because of Promise Keepers. My marriages were upended because of sin.

        In all fairness, I must clarify something. I am a middle-aged woman who has learned that not obeying God has consequences. I know what it’s like to be treated poorly in a marriage. I have made a conscious choice to be in a relationship where I DO NOT LEAD. Every woman is different. While I do very sincerely believe God’s Word is clear that women were created as a helpmate for men, I know that my view is not a popular one in today’s culture. I also know that not every woman will WANT the kind of relationship I NEED. I am adult ADHD, and while not as severe as some (I do not take medication for this, although I tried it) I do have a tendency to get NOTHING done if I do not have focus and structure. I have CHOSEN to find a Christian man, who loves God, who will value my intellect (what bit God has granted), who will respect me as a growing Christian woman, and will not abuse the authority I am granting him. Since being in this relationship, I have been able to develop a routine to my day, to be very successful at paying off debts (that which my ex decided he wanted no responsibility), I have been cured from a mild hoarding tendency (ok, not so mild but I didn’t keep empty trash containers, I was more of a collector!!), I have begun getting deeper into God’s Word, and teaching a Bible study again. I have not only a desire, but a NEED for control in my life.

        I agree that it is the job of each spouse to know the needs, desires, and preferences of the other. With the relationship I am in, communication offers that knowledge. I am respected to the utmost, and it is expected that others respect me, as well. While I have made it a choice to serve and please the man in my life, no matter what that may be, I am not DUMPED on. As I think I stated, I feel cherished and protected, and most of all, I feel respected. This man is a Godly example of what Christian men should be. I began praying many years ago after teaching a study to women on what to look for in a “Man of God” that my husband would be that man, and for a while, I really believed my husband, at the time, was going to become that man. He began going to church, encouraged me to start a home group, got involved more with our local congregation. And then, he left.

        I was very specific when looking for a new relationship. I had my list of qualifications and Godly characteristics and I was prayed up!! I made it clear that I would NOT compromise God’s Word or my beliefs. God had shown me that a Leader was what I needed. My relationship is not one of dictatorship, it is leadership.

        I did treat my second husband as a king, not because I thought I would go to hell if I didn’t, but because I knew in my heart he was not a Christian and HE WAS GOING TO HELL. I knew that I had to be a Christian example of servitude, of forgiveness, of showing love for others. I knew things he was doing before we were married and I made a choice to marry him anyway. I made a mistake!! After I was in the marriage and discovered he WAS NOT truly a Christian, I had made this choice and I would have to live with my choice. My pastor even suggested that I end the marriage, but after praying and reading over God’s Word, God let me know that divorce at the time was not an option. 1 Corinthians 7:13 gave me that answer: “And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.” I was not in any danger, he was not having a physical affair (he was having “cyber affairs”) and while I wasn’t happy, I was at peace with my choice because I felt it was what God was leading me to do. He did finally decide to act on one of the cyber-affairs with an “old friend” and he did eventually decide to leave. Further in this same chapter of 1 Corinthians it tells us: (v. 15) “But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.” I was abandoned by an unbeliever and I was no longer bound. He also told me after he left that I had been the perfect wife. The only complaint he had was that I loved God more than him and he couldn’t handle that. I told him I would make no apologies for loving my Creator and Redeemer!! He wished me well and informed me that he was sure I would find someone just as “fanatic” as I.

        I am sorry that there are women that take everything they are taught “the Bible says” to heart and don’t take the time to use the brain God gave them to study HIS WORD for themselves. Being raised in a Christian community, my parents, grandparents, pastor, Sunday School teachers, and older Christian women in my church taught me not to believe everything that I hear, but to take what was taught (even by them), study for myself and pray for the understanding that comes through the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ and invite that Spirit to dwell within us, and to challenge them if I found they were teaching falsely. Yes, I have made mistakes, and most of them were for self-indulgent reasons that I now regret, but I thank God, that through my repentance and His mercy and grace, I have been given, not only forgiveness, but growth, and I thank God for the experience and heart knowledge that I have gained. I don’t question my faith because of the bad decisions I have made. God didn’t make those decisions and even showed me before both marriages why I SHOULDN’T have married either of them, but I didn’t do what God wanted, I did what I wanted, and I paid the price. I have also been taught that the ONLY sin that will send me to hell is denying Christ as my Savior. So, knowing now that there are women in the world who are obviously taught to not study God’s Word to find the truth, that they are to make decisions based on false teaching, and that not putting man in a “monarchy” position could give them a place in the “fiery furnace”, I am thankful for my Christian upbringing and that I was taught to study God’s Word and now, because of the experience from the decisions I have made, I have learned OBEDIENCE to God’s Word, the hard way.

        I have often read a few of those broken and devastated women’s posts. I don’t even have to go to the internet to find them, I KNOW them. I have counseled with them, I have prayed with them, I have cried with them, I have studied God’s Word with them and after doing those things with these women, they find that they didn’t follow God’s instructions in the first place when choosing a mate. And yes, God does give us very specific instructions on that, as well. There is NOTHING romantic about living a life under false teaching, nor a life of disobedience. Some of these women, like myself, have known what God’s word says about picking a man but some of us chose to ignore or disobey it or say to ourselves that it doesn’t really say that. It is SAD that women and men have not allowed themselves to be led by the Spirit as to the TRUTH. I can assure you, the experiences I have had and the growth I have experienced has not put me in a place to be in a “romantic little bubble”. I live a real life, with real problems, real trials, and real temptations. I have just been blessed with a Godly man who wants to lead and together, with God’s guidance, we get through them all.

        • Gregg says:

          I have been married for 16 years and the last 5 years my wife has withheld sex from me because she says I don’t talk enough about feelings so she doesn’t feel close to me. I do know and admit that I need work in this area but to not have any sex or intimate kissing or anything makes me feel that she just doesn’t love me anymore. I make a good living, I am always home to play with the kids, I do most of the house hold chores, she only works part time as a realtor, we are both avid Christians and whenever I tell her I feel un loved without sex I get blasted that that is all I think about.

          • Monica says:

            Well, goes back to men have always been raised to be tough and not show their feelings. My husbands not a very ‘feeling’ guy either, as I would like him to be. Women are taught to let their feelings out all their life, men told not to cry as it shows weakness.

            Now you didn’t give much detail, but what is it that she wants you to talk about? What feelings? how you feel about her? I can tell you from 17 years in a marriage with an unemotional man, that you can’t always get blood from a stone, not gonna happen. He has gotten better, yes. I know my husband isn’t gonna be like an actor in a romantic love story, so is she expecting something that’s unrealistic for you?

            To me personally, helping with chores, kids etc is an act of love and romance. My husband rarely lifts a finger with chores. In 17 years he’s literally done the dishes ONCE!!! He does play with the kids but that’s where it ends, but has never changed a diaper or helped with homework. So in my opinion if you do help around the house that’s a blessing!!! And an act of love.

            So if you give more detail I can probably offer advice on how I’ve handled it all these years. Because sometimes we women don’t see the little things that are being done for us, as an emotional act of love, such as helping around the house etc. There is a happy medium.

  10. Mary says:

    I think a lot of the conflict in the comments on this post might be cleared up if everyone read Prager’s original articles. I read them and found nothing with which I disagree. What is also helpful is that he is a little more balanced than Wintery.

    Firstly, he acknowledges that there are wise women who don’t manipulate their husbands in this area and who think of how they can care for their husbands with sex. Secondly, he makes the important point that this only applies to good men – i.e. decent men. This excludes abusive men, porn addicts, etc. So if a woman’s husband starts reading porn and expects her to act things out with him, she should not enable his addiction and get herself embroiled in sin.

    It would have been helpful if Wintery had mentioned these things in his post as well.

  11. Retha says:

    Wintery, I had 2 questions in the 12/21 11:12pm post that you probably missed:
    Does pro-male ( 4) in your list of what women should be) mean being anti-female, as pro-life means anti-choice?
    Male oriented curricula( 14) in your list of what women should be)- is that what boys should get, or the only thing girls should get too?

    • 1) No, it just means recognizing the role that fathers play and taking steps to make sure that there are lots of incentives for good fathers
      2) boys should get adventure stories, lots of practical stuff, and so on. Girls can get whatever they want.

    • Retha,

      I must point out that being pro-life is NOT the same as anti-choice. “Choice” has become a euphemism for the right to murder one’s child. The choice to be made is whether or not to have sex which leads to pregnancy. Once one has conceived a child, the only choice left is what to do with it once it’s born – keep it or give it away.

      • Mary says:

        Glenn,

        While I prefer the term “pro-life” because the language of choice is euphemistic and a lot of people see it as positive, I actually don’t have a problem with being called “anti-choice” on abortion. I’m also anti-choice on the murder of born people, anti-choice on rape, and anti-choice on slavery. I’m pro-choice on ice cream and chocolate. We all feel that there are some choices which should be limited when they violate the rights of others. That’s the whole point of the judicial system.

        So we don’t have to shy away from the terminology of choice, as weasly as it is. We can help people to see the real meaning of the terminology. I’m proudly anti-choice when it comes to abortion!

        • Mary,
          I understand what you’re saying, but the pro-abortion crowd use “anti-choice” as an invective against anti-abortionists. I think to use it as you defined it is to add some confusion to the debate. I wouldn’t recommend it.

          • Mary says:

            I totally agree. So I don’t use the term myself. But if they use it on me, I know how to respond.

      • Retha says:

        I know, and agree. This was said to use short terms in a way people understand them,

  12. […] recently read a blog by Wintery Knight that compelled me to reply.  He posted on What does the common practice of withholding sex reveal about women?  I was moved by the article and the comments and after discussing it with someone I highly […]

  13. Wintery,

    Wintery wrote: //Every sensible man is well aware of these things they have to do and they all do them. It’s the women who need to be reminded about all the duties they neglect, because they blame men too much.//

    Eh, not so sure about the part about *every sensible man, nor about generalizing that women are the ones that need to be reminded about the duties they neglect. Wouldn’t it be fair to say that if we left your statement as it is, that *every sensible woman would not need to be reminded about their duties just as *every sensible man already knows what his duties are, and does them? Indeed no. Under this rubric, neither male nor female have ever been THAT sensible.

    I don’t disagree with your assessment about where *a source of women’s sex-refusal comes from. I think it is safe to say that many instances come from a hyper-feminist ignorance of the male nature. However, you did not say it that way. Instead, you give the impression that the source comes solely from such an attitude. Such pigeonholing can and does rub the wrong way, regardless of the number of instances where your assessment is correct.

    There *are other factors to consider. As much as you deride Mark Driscoll, you both share similar perspectives on the issue, albeit from opposite ends.

    I think Mary’s 12/22/10 5:30pm comment says it all.

    Overall, if you are reminding us or pointing out that women play a part in our own current sexual demise, then it is a good word. :)

    • Eeee! Yes, I agree with that. Every sensible man or woman knows about things that they ought to be doing. But it’s less funny and provocative if I say it that way because then a WHOLE BUNCH of women who aren’t sensible are going to think they are sensible. You know – the ones who read “The Shack” and “Blue Like Jazz” and who watch “Bridget Jones’ Diary” and “Eat, Pray, Love”. I’m pretty sure that you don’t do that, though! LOL.

      “I think it is safe to say that many instances come from a hyper-feminist ignorance of the male nature.” Well, this is accurate, but by generalizing it to all women, I aim to get them to think about the issue, and especially to go out and read about about men’s natures and how to love men well. If I qualify everything I say, then not only is it less funny, but also it will not have the intended effect of convicting women in general instead of getting them off the hook.

      I pick on Driscoll, but I think he is one of the most effective pastors since he uses real world evidence. But I cannot stand the way that he thinks that women can start relationships with men who are non-Christians and then expect them to act like Christians. That is a serious error that he makes. Women are responsible for evaluating men objectively, based on past performance and current capabilities. Women should not choose a man based on jaw line and muscles and social approval. And they should not imagine a happy life together based on that criteria and think that their imagination is real. It’s a serious problem, which is why I wrote a whole post about personal responsibility.

      I have surveyed a huge number of women, what I have found is that they are not only choosing men based on the need for happiness (using essentially non-Christian criteria) but they are also NOT PREPARED for political and economic challenges to the family. They’re aren’t aware of them, and they aren’t prepared for them. I know 30+ year old women who are reading Narnia books and Mere Christianity even at such a mature age! But the books that are read by 90% of the Christian women I know are fiction stories and romance novels. I am not making this up. The kinds of things that you and I care about – taxes, education laws, homeschooling laws, free speech laws, national debt, social programs that encourage vice, etc. – are completely off their radar in large part.

  14. McSpinster says:

    So you want women to read about about men’s natures? I submit to you, Wintery, that men’s nature’s aren’t very complicated; women understand them well enough. We’ve been reminded of “how men are” every day of our lives from the time we are old enough to wear party dresses by boys, then teenage boys, then young men, then older men and of course, our dads and for those who have them, brothers.

    It’s not a failure to understand. I think it is, to a large extent, that women don’t think men are really so one-dimensional. But men oftentimes make themselves out to be that way.

  15. […] December 29, 2010 by Jeff Peterson Well, well. As you can see from the comments in the original post by Mr. Wintery Knight, THIS is a touchy subject, indeed.  Keep in mind that Mr. Prager is Jewish, not writing from a Christian perspective.  Mr. Knight, though, is a Christian. Dennis Prager features a lot of discussions about male-female relationships on his show, particularly during the male-female hour. I think this is one of the parts of his show that I really like best, because he knows what he is talking about. He did a two part series a while back on 1) male sexuality and 2) what women should do about it within a marriage. Part 1 is here. Excerpt: It is an axiom of contemporary marital life that if a wife is not … Read More […]

  16. James says:

    I do everything to make my wife happy. I clean up, help cook dinner at times, run the girls around, love on her, and the list goes on. But when it comes down to sex she wants nothing to do with it. She try to make me feel bad when I do try to get sex. I will say I’m sick of it…it’s to the point just about every women I see looks good. The only thing that’s stopping me from acting out is my fear and love of the Lord! It sucks because every time I get down about her not having sex with me, I feel I let the Lord down. I am not a robot nor a machine, there is only so much I could take. she wants me to kiss on her, give he google eyes all day, walk around happy, and when I doesn’t do it she doesn’t understand. I tried talking to her but she doesn’t listen. I told her I don’t want it everyday or every other day, I would be happy with once a week. I feel it need to be 50/50 in this relationship and it’s not.

    • This is actually pretty normal, and it’s a tragedy. I hear this all the time from the men in my office. It’s common for women to turn up their nose at sex, and yet to expect that men will be crazily in love with them. I’ve read about it in several books and it seems to be a widespread problem. The sense of entitlement is really alarming. Women seem to be very dismissive of what men are really like when it comes to sex. I’m surprised to see guys that I respect talking to me about affairs and stuff. The wives have no idea, they just feel that men should give them what they want and make no demands on them.

      • Mara says:

        I don’t really understand where you get the idea that this is pretty normal, nor how you feel justified in calling it a common practice.

        As far as I can tell you are talking about what you hear from other men. That makes it normal and common?
        No. It’s what some men say to each other.

        I hear the other side of the story from different women and I could say certain things are common and normal when really, all I would be doing is telling what I hear and labeling it common and normal.

        It’s very slanted of you.

        I’m sure there are women out there, like James’s wife, that do this. But going beyond and saying it is common really isn’t fair.

        • Well, it comes up in all the book that Dr. Laura writes, and also on her radio show, and all the men tell me about it. And when I ask women what men complain about in marriage, none of them know about this, so it’s a concern. If they don’t know, then they’ll think we are weird. I’m reading Dobson’s “What Wives Wish Husbands Knew about Women” or whatever it’s called.

    • Mary says:

      James, I am very sad to hear how your wife is neglecting you in this way. :( Some things to think through and maybe to ask your wife: Is your wife a Christian? If so, what does she make of Paul’s injunction that married people should not deprive each other in this area except by mutual consent and only for a little while to devote themselves to prayer? What does she make of her marital vows to love you? If she is allowed to deprive you of sex for a long time, can she see any reason why you shouldn’t similarly deprive her of signs of affection that she appreciates? Does your wife perhaps have an unhealthy idea of sex as bad even in marriage?

    • Moni says:

      Well I can tell you personally if MY husband did what u claim to do for your wife I’d be all over that 3 times a day!!! My husband does nothing when it comes to the home or children. I still give it up, when there’s time daily. It does pain me because he won’t lift the tiniest finger to help a little around the home. I have 5 children between 2-12. That wears a person out!!!! All I ask is for SOMETHING and I don’t get it.

      If you honestly do all these things than sit and talk honestly with her. Make a plan, no criticizing, no condemning, no finger pointing or raising voices allowed. If one gets upset, take a break. Take the time to find out what she wants in bed, what her desires are. You may find she’s a sexual deviant waiting to be let loose on you!!! All it takes for women is some honest, open dialogue about what her wants and needs are sexually. Something a lot of men neglect. This should be active and fulfilling for BOTH parties as God wishes. It’s not a one way street simply for the mans gratification as we are taught. We have emotional, spiritual and mental needs that are met during a good love making session. It’s quality not quantity, something men also don’t get. It’s actually the same for men. If all 3 areas are met each time, you BOTH will be happy and satisfied, As this time is the closest you will ever be to god in life until you take your final breathe.

    • kuu says:

      I would sit her down and have an honest conversation with her (I know she isn’t listening, but you have to tell her at least once, I think that’s only fair.) Tell her that you feel that you have tried everything, that she’s not fulfilling your needs, that you are willing to do something else if that will work and willing to go to therapy if that’s what it takes, but that you are at the end of your ability to cope with the situation. That you are not saying this to hurt her, but to make her aware of the severity of the situation. Tell her you have considered cheating and in order not to do that to yourself, to her, (and god), you have to leave the relationship if things don’t change.

  17. Rick in Denver says:

    GOT a big question: I have read a lot of the posts and article. OK, got it- it’s wrong/ sin to withhold sex from your spouse. BUT- what if the Christian spouse simply does not care. My wife has heard it’s sin. Ignores it. Doesn’t care. She is happy because I meet her needs (as best as human can!) so she is happy… and still no interest in sex.
    SO- it’s sin. The wife knows. and still does not care in the least.
    WHAT can be done at that point??

    • Moni says:

      Hi Rick,

      Honestly you need to read what I posted above. Are you nagging her? Telling her she’s a sinner constantly? This will not make your wife want you more. It will make her resent you more and withhold even more. Find out what SHE wants during love making. Do what SHE wants in bed. God tells us NOTHING is off limits with our partner except bringing a third party and entering the “exit” so as not to be explicit. Just have some open, compassionate, empathetic conversation with her. No saying she’s a sinner, condemning or finger pointing. Just be real partners as God intended and that sometimes means listening to what your wife has to say about what her needs and wants are in bed.

      Been married 17 yrs now. If a man can’t take the time to listen to his wife’s needs it won’t last long before she strays or simply leaves. Wives are nOt objects to be used as the husband desires. Jesus said love your wife as much as you love the church. This in no way means being selfish and consider your own needs only when it comes to all aspects of marriage.

  18. Moni says:

    Puhlease!!! I find this almost very Muslim in its thinking that women should just succumb to the whims of her husband, have sex whenever he wants even if she’s not In the mood. This is chauvinistic in thinking as when the women is not fully into the love making experience then she is “not there” spiritually or mentally, maybe physically but that’s it!!! This can also leave the husband feeling inadequate as if the woman is not into it she will not be able to be satisfied and he not fulfill her needs in bed as well. And she will leave the bed resentful, thus creating anger that shows in other ways around the home and in the marriage. Such as not meeting any of his other needs and not caring about him OR “nagging” him.

    Sex IS an emotional experience for a woman, after all we are letting the man become a Part Of US as he is inside US, not the other way around. This does not happen easily if the woman is not in the mood, and does cause poor feelings and reactions in the marriage in other ways. Men need to learn that just because his wife is not in the mood that it’s not a jab at his sexual ego. Why not ask why? Engage in loving, caring conversation and show empathy and compassion for her? If a man did he’d find that the tables would more than likely turn in his favor and the sex would happen as HE wants.

    God created us equal, not to be sex slaves or servants!! Marriage is a give and take that requires dialogue, compassion, understanding and more over VERY hard work.

  19. boothes says:

    I am late to the discussion but I’ll post hoping someone will read and respond. I think the problem is that both men and women don’t understand the differences in their sexuality. It is not just women what women “need” to do.

    Most women do not have spontaneous desire when there is a lot going on in their life. I know that is true for me I do not think of sex. I realized that when my husband and I had kids and we had to deal with the demands of a much more complicated life that in our dating days.

    I realized that the issue was that I had to prepare for sex by freeing my mind of thoughts of mundane tasks. When I did this and allowed myself to be aroused by my husband, there was no problem.

    My husband was very open to working with em to make it happen. I mostly needed time and a slow approach by him. Having my azz grabbed or boobs crushed as an initial approach, did not work for me.

    With the exception of times when I have cramps, I rarely pass up an opportunity to have sex when my husband is raring to go.

    One of my female friends often site her husbands attitude as a big problem. He takes her request that he not grab her boobs every time she passes him as an affront to his male sexuality. He says they are irresistible and she should be flattered.

    She is not though and she avoids his touch. I don’t see that his need to grab her despite her request as a loving act. She might reasonably assume that sex is for him and not for them.

    The thing that woman should know is that just because they do not feeling spontaneous desire like men does not mean that they cannot be aroused. The most loving and adaptive thing for both to do is to work on what will arouse her.

    The thing that men should know is that sex in a partnered relationship is about pleasing each other not doing what pleases him, if indeed that has happened. I suppose each man will have to examine that for themselves.

    I don’t know if it is an ego thing but, just about every man who post is a good lover. No insult to those that are however, there has to be some men who don’t have a clue about female sexuality don’t you think?

    It cannot always be the woman fault can it? There are too many woman who site this as a problem that they cannot discuss it with their partner.

    Many men seem to hang their masculinity on their ability to make a woman orgasm rather that making sex mutually satisfying.

    Any hint that his partner is not satisfied may be taken as a hit to his ego. His partner may not bring it up again due to his response.

    I am fairly certain that some men will see this post as blaming men. That is not my aim. I am sharing our successful solution in hopes that it helps. If you reread it, you may see that I also give advice to women that may be helpful.

    • Monica says:

      Boothe,

      I agree completely. MEn take any suggestions or ‘hey this doesn’t do it for me, let’s do this’ as a hit to their male ego. To a woman who is more open and willing to ‘talk’ about things his response comes as a hit to her, as why? Why do you behave this way, why won’t you talk etc….

      Sex IS a partnered experience and if you truly love someone talking about it should not be an issue, as the more you know about each others desires, the more fullfilling the experience will be, as God intended it to be between a married couple.

      My husband and I just had a discussion last night about how everywhere he looks sex is being sold and much of what he wanted is NOT reality, but advertising and in a way lust that is not how it really is in life, and he actually apologized …. CALL guiness, lol. This came out of nowhere. But you know what, just that little confession did a world of good. I thought hey hes finally getting it. There are not going to be lap dances in barely there lingerie every night especially when there are 5 kids in the house ages 2-12 that have needs too …. dinner, homework, baths etc. Real life is not what men are taught growing up, and same for women too. Men want the stripper, women want the charming, caring prince, the key is to meeting each other half way.

      Oh, and I do find it funny that so many men think they are the bomb in bed. They are raised that sex is the most important thing in life, and their performance the only thing that matters too. NO, there’s alot more to sex than just the performance. It’s the intimacy that helps fullfill the womans needs, the cuddling, the touching the talking, oh yes I said the most evil word for a man TALKING!!! lol :p

      And for your friend, I too have a groper. His, or used to be, his way of coming home, no ‘hi,’ just hands straight down my pants or on my chest. There couldn’t be even a hug without strings. I had to sit down with him and honestly tell him how I’d like cuddling and hugging without constantly being groped. His response was as your friends husband … but you’re awesome you should be flattered.’ I was like no, there’s a time and place for that. I need the hugs and the affection without always feeling like an object that he simply wanted to grab. I’m not flattered, it makes me feel like i’m simply a fun bag for you, I need more from you, than just being a playground. Of course he took it wrong. So how I finally cured it, reverse psychology. Every time he came near me I groped him first. Sounds funny but he didn’t like it all, I grabbed his ‘moobies’ and his nether region, and walked away as he did to me. Within a week after months of trying to talk to him about it, he was done, he didn’t feel comfortable, go figure!! Sometimes actions speaks louder than words!!! He FINALLY got the point … AMEN!!! :o)

  20. Travis Hall says:

    To start off with I’m a 21 years old a veteran of the united states marine corps and I need help advice anything….I’ve been in my relation ship for over a year now and engaged to be married my fiancee is 28….up to almost a year into our relation ship we were fine sex was great and getting along fine….but as the months passed her sexual desire if you will has went from having sex 3 to 4 times a week to 3 to 4 times a month if I’m lucky and from what I’ve read about the article you know how I feel…..hurt….sad….angry….and quiet….I feel ashamed in ways….is there something wrong with me…is she not attracted to me anymore….is she cheating on me ect ect….I feel theses emotions all the time…..she says she’s not in the mood or to tired are the most common…..we have talked about it and she thinks her hormones are out of balance….I don’t know if I should believe it…I don’t know what to do…I’m tired of feeling this way….its making life miserable but I stay because I love her..could the age difference be a factor??? ….please any advice would be very much appreciated…..I’ve fought and helped my country…can someone return the favor

    • JJ says:

      Travis I have been married twice. Some females “not all” When a woman doesn’t respect you, or she thinks she is in control of the relationship, or she has got you ex. a ring she will become complacent and stop having sex with you.It is not you! I have had this happen to me. I did everything for my wife faithful put her through school even and she would never have sex with me. It’s bullshit don’t even marry her if you can’t straighten it out you are young and I am sure you are capable of meeting a better female.

  21. Elizabeth says:

    Suggestion to Travis: Try God’s way – abstinence outside of marriage, then marriage, then sex in marriage only with your spouse.

    • Travis Hall says:

      And how is not having sex going to solve the problem When the not having sex is the problem ??

      • Monica says:

        I guess they are meaning that by not having sex before marriage there will be none of the ‘well I’ve had better’ issues that come up in relatonships especially when sex does become an issue in the relationship. I’m sure many people on this thread have thrown that out once or twice in an arguement.

        And for your original comment, the age difference could be a factor if she’s with you simply as a gold digger because I’m sure as a 21 yr veteran you make a pretty decent living by now. Even though Im a woman on this thread, that would be an issue I’d consider, sorry other women. Plus at 28 her drive should still be quite high unless she may have some fibroids or other female issues that are throwing her hormones out of whack. But if she gets her yearly exams, they should be found during that. She can easily get her hormones checked, its a simple blood draw if shes that concerned.

        Also, I have a few members in my family that are military, and hate to be brutally honest but when they go away on leaves for long periods of time, many of their wives have not remained faithful, especially the younger ones. But thats just been in my immediate experience with immediate family, 3 military members, one a lifer as he calls it lol.

        So, if you have talked and shes simply blaming hormones, make her a dr appointment to get it checked … YOU DO IT!! Take her and say Im just concerned for you dear. Because having your hormones out of balance can be a precursor to many of the ugly female cancers we get later in life especially if estrogen levels are down. If she is as concerned as she says shell do it willingly. If that all checks out then theres something else wrong, and id personally reevaluate the relationship as you are not married yet. Having a 28 year old hottie at your side is great, but if shes say 15-20 years your junior, what will it be like when you are 60 and shes at her peak? That is always something to consider and many men dont to be honest.

        Id do a little soul searching if all checks out with her and see why shes really in this relationship then, after the hormone check. If it is her hormones that can be treated easily. I would do that first, then if its all good, move on to the next step with what may or may not be wrong. And if the sex miraculously gets better before you tie the knot and there was no hormonal issue, Id personally be careful. Make sure your assets remain your assets even in the event of a split further down the road, if you know what I mean. Im talking prenup. I dont want to sound mean, but younger women in relationships with older men dont always have the best intentions at heart. Sorry, to say that, I would just hate to see someone that has served this country lose it all to a gold digger.

        Oh, and I completely understand your frustrations. Did this start to become an issue after she got the engagement ring? If so Id call that a HUGE coincidence. I wouldnt blame yourself, but simply get to the bottom of it, and start by getting her checked. After that what will the excuse be?

        Not sure if I was much help, but thats my honest opinion and advice.

  22. Meg says:

    I have a question. I’ve been reading a lot of the responses here. And reading up on passive-aggressive behavior, and have come to the conclusion that both my spouse and I display a lot of this behavior in our relationship with eachother.. I have great difficulty giving in to sex because I do not feel he wants to make love to me, but rather, just to feel relieved or acceptable to himself by his ability to perform, which is often difficult for him.. I can’t seem to figure out- even with the help of a counselor, whether what I am doing (withholding) is a fair response under the circumstances, or a sinful one. I should say that I am convinced my spouse does not truly love me, and that I feel in a state of heartbreak for long years now because I would love a normal sexual relationship where there is give and take, and I would love to be able to share that aspect with him honestly, rather than reluctantly, or going along with it just to appease him so that he won’t further reject me. advice?

  23. Rebecca says:

    Sigh. What about all of the work that women put into the kids and the house? If men did more of that stuff they *might* get more sex if the woman is feeling up to it. Our bodies are sacred and to have sex with a man out of guilt if you are not into it is damaging for your own self esteem and theirs.

    • I think that this is a fine view for a non-Christian to hold, but for Christians men and women are required to not deprive their spouses of sex (see 1 Cor 7). Of course, this is something that each person has to check because not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is one. A lot of people call themselves Christians, but their real authority is not the Bible, but their own feelings and intuitions. It is something men have to test for during courting – is this woman a real Christian?

      Having said that, the courting period is the time to test a man’s ability to protect and provide for a woman. Once the marriage is done, that commitment to not deprive your spouse has been made and must be honored (NOTE: I mean saying “yes” more often than saying “no”, not saying yes ALL the time).

  24. whydoiputuowithit says:

    I been married not even a year and can count how many times we have had sex. Also could write a book of infinite excuses. I would do anything for my wife and All I get are excuses why we dont have sex. I am planning to threaten couseling or end it. My power has been taken away and I have no backbone any more. Why do I stay? Why do I constantly put up with it? I did leave one night after an argument but came back 3 hours later to a sexless crappy marriage. We r great roommates tho, yeah what a life

    Sorry had to correct spelling

    • Was she very responsive to your different needs and your leadership during the courting phase?

      • whydoiputuowithit says:

        Yes we had sex often and our relationship was good. She is a control freak so I rarely had much leadership and when I tried we would fight. We broke up twice and when we got back together it was good again and we had sex twice a week for a while. We had problems but work through them. Then we got married and everything changed. Two weeks after everything went down hill. Didnt have sex for 2 months and I became distant. We got into an argument about how she didnt sign up for this and I begged her to kick me out because I didnt want to be the bad guy asking for a divorce. I left for 3 hours two nights before christmas because I asked why she has been mad at me for so long and why she married me. She said she didnt know so I left. We talked I went and spoke to a pastor cause my insurance didnt cover a shrink. We talked again and everything since then has been had great sex 4 weeks ago then terrible she wasnt into it sex 3 weeks ago to excuses after excuse to promising the next day then the next day ect. and I been patient, we get along great good talking and evening but then excuses.. Last night vday I made 2lbs of lobster tails, 2 lbs of king crab, artichokes, drinks while watching a movie and then said she has to work tomorrow thats why we cant have sex. Men know sex is at best 15-30 mins and that was her excuse cause she has to get up for work. She goes to bed at 10 and reads for at least 30 mins and wakes up at 7:45. So I slept on couch I got up early didnt say good morning went to bed and acted like I was asleep till she left. I think she attempted to say bye but I was mad and she does deserve my attention when she makes for excuses not to have hers. I am tired of self pleasuring. I dont beg, I am nice to my wife, I cook and clean and help around the house. We dont have kids and I keep laughing at that excuse. I want to make a tshirt that reads
        ….I cant I have to work tomorrow.
        I wish I could unlove my wife so I am not angry all the time and frustrated. I know I answered more then u asked but had to explain more

        • whydoiputuowithit says:

          Adding to what happened on vday I had a few drinks and lately they have hit me harder then usual. After she gave me another excuse I thought I fell asleep on the couch. I mentioned we didnr speak until I came home and asked what her problem is and she said I went on a rant of how terrible the relationship is. I feel bad only because I dont get drunk and lately I have been and I guess I was letting go all my thoughts ive been storing up for this past year. She didnt want to talk about it and she said I reminded her . Her drunk father how he would go on rants and abe found it disgusting and abusive. I am tell anyone this because I was in the wrong for getting drunk and upset that my wife doesnt want me sexually. She was in bed and I on the couch ranting but I dont see why she said it was abusive. I believe I said why am I in this relationship that I am unhappy that her excuses are rude and etc. I guess I had to say what I needed to say. But alone in another room. I told her I was glad she heard. I told her I am sick of the excuses and asked her why and she finally told me she doesnt want sex and doesnr know why. So in fact shes been stringing mw along acting and promising something she never wants. Ok so with thay said ive called my brother and asked him what I should do. I dont know if I can keep handling a sexless marriage and not sure I want to stay. I do love her but its not worth it to neg for affection. Maybe I am the problem and I would love to change but only if its a long term loving relationship. She left to go have dinner with her friend so I am not sure what she wants to do. I am struggling here and need help

          • Wow. I have no idea what to tell you. I have so many rules and checks to protect me from someone like that – checking for a worldview that incorporates a design and a grounded standard of morality. Without some kind of objective design for marriage that is agreed to, and some sort of objective moral standard, it really is impossible to exert any leverage on a person.

          • whydoiputuowithit says:

            Sorry I am upset and not knowing what to do. P lus I didnt truely understand what u meant on your last reply

          • I mean if you had given her a book like “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” in courtship, how would she respond to that?

        • Frank A says:

          Whydoiputuowithit: Your experiences almost mirror mine. Always too tired to share intimacy but then stays up until midnight either on phone with her sister, or on the Iphone and/or Ipad, playing “word games” with others (family members and lady-friends). Then, she wonders why I’m always in a depressed and sometimes angry mood. Two counselors (females) got her to admit (after some prodding) that she takes our 27yr.marriage for granted. Both times, after each had suggested individual counseling with her, she never returned to counseling.

      • newkid says:

        I’ve been following your blogs I agree with your messages. How do you not have a wife yet? Women always complain that there are no good men, but you are the epitome of a strong Christian man. Have you considered marrying an East Asian woman?

        • Yes! If I could find one. They are the best kind! And thank you for the compliment. Married women tend to think I would make a good husband, but not single Western women. I get into trouble because I am a virgin, or because I am an engineer, or because I don’t drink enough, or because I want them to raise effective children using some sort of plan. They want marriage to be a roller-coaster, and I am not that guy.

          • newkid says:

            hmmm, I see. Well have you tried any Christian dating sites? I have a friend who is on a dating site who likes Eastern Asian women, but he says it’s hard to find a Christian Eastern Asian, let alone a REAL Christian one.

          • No, not me. I have seen the profiles on those things and all the Christian women read Harry Potter and C.S. Lewis and Francis Chan. It’s just not what I am looking for!

  25. Willymakeit says:

    There once was a child with his mom in the checkout line at the local grocery store. The child says ” mommy can I have a piece of candy?” His mommy replied, “No”. The child started crying on and on. “Mommy please” he begged. Again she replies, “I said no! Now quite asking”. But the childs continuous request finally wears down his mother. Mom says, “Ok, you can have a piece of candy. Now shut-up, and don’t ask for anything else.” I am so that little boy. After 30 years of marriage, I still love my wife with all my heart. I still have a sweet tooth for her but I don’t get much candy. We do a lot of things together. We take trips together, go to lunch or dinner, visit friends etc. But for some reason I’m not permited down the candy aisle very much. Maybe 3-5 times a year. I know! I guess I can dwell on it or except it. I haven’t decided yet.

    • Wow, have you told her all of this? You would think that she would be flattered. Does she understand that men and women are different and like different things?

    • Jahmal Raoul Standley says:

      What a waste of the beautiful creation God intended for us to experience in marriage ..

  26. Marissa says:

    If anyone is to blame for women withholding sex it’s men in general. They are the ones who demand sex, a woman to raise the kids, clean the house, work outside the home and put up with a husband’s womanizing. If men would truly respect and protect women, there wouldn’t be any withholding of anything. Men are pigs and nowadays are only good for one thing, making babies. Women really don’t need them for anything else, especially strong, professional women.

  27. As you mentioned it takes two to have a child – that is designed by nature.
    That cannot be denied.
    As you mentioned “Women really don’t need them for anything else, especially strong, professional women.”
    Permit me ask a couple of questions:
    Who is raising the child while the “strong, professional women” is being a “strong, professional women” ?
    And who is paying for the raising of the child when the “strong, professional women” is under the obligation of her profession?
    What is mental, emotional, spiritual, social, financial repercussions of raising a fatherless child ?
    As mentioned, nature designed the birth of children to occur between a male/female. The natural fiat included the raising of the child to correspond between a male / female.
    To intentionally do otherwise is selfish, immature, and destructive.
    Shalom

    • Marissa says:

      Well let me tell you, it seems women have to take care of everything because men only have one thing on their minds. It’s always the excuse, “that’s the way they are made”. Men are allowed to get away from doing anything but have a full time job. Even then, they need a woman to go work because they don’t make enough to raise the family. They expect a slave and society is ok with that. I have given myselfi to the fullest on every aspect; to him, the house, the kids, only thing I haven’t given is blood, which I’m very near too. I’m always exhausted in pain from my back and knees and I sti have to give more of my body?! It’s never enough with a man. Frankly, I can understand why some women leave their husbands for another partner like a woman! Men are too primitive to expect and demand sex so much, WE have evolved! What happened to the man? It’s articles and publishings like these from horny, old men that enable man to continue his sinful desire of the flesh even if it’s from his wife. Kids have been created, sex is over. Isn’t that what the Bible states?

    • Marissa says:

      Forgot to answer a few things, women are raising and paying for the child to be taken care of. Emotional and mentally it’s the woman who takes care of that. It’s always a woman. Men can’t and are not expected to lift a finger but are allowed to demand and receive sex. Sure. What a joke! Men are useless, boy was I fooled.

      • Josh says:

        I’m really hoping this is satire.

      • It would sound like you are coming out of a “interesting” marriage situation.
        Btw, the bible states many things regarding sex. In fact, it was the one of the first commandments given ie “be fruitful and multiply”.
        I dont seeing a statue of limitations in either the OT or the NT recall.
        Allow me to ask – did you take a wedding vow ? If so, where was it taken and what was said ?
        Shalom

  28. Marissa says:

    Unfortunately I’m still married. The wedding vows were contemporary where both parties “honor, love and cherish”. But when one party breaks the vows repeatedly, how is the other expected to continue to honor those vows? And, I noticed that there is no sympathy for the wife working like a dog and putting up with infidelity. No, no one cares about the wife, it’s all about the husband’s sex isn’t it? Not one of you has even expressed any concern about that. Typical…

    • Marissa says:

      Well, from the looks of this blog, it seems sex is over for a lot of you. Hope you all don’t die from that. I’m out…

    • Interesting…. Mind if I ask which vow was broken ?
      Was it anything illegal or immoral of which are true grounds for divorce imo ?
      Something I have seen true of ALL divorces & relationships – There are two sides to every story and every action / word has a consequence – this cannot be denied (hence withhold judgement).
      Once children involved – seek professional help and from all concerned responsible parties.
      Kids take the biggest hit in failed relationships. Permit me to suggest, do your best to not to be a negative statistic.
      Btw, in regards to your comment about “the husbands sex” get real.
      Some men have a bit more self control when it comes to glandular urges – some “men” dont want to be with “nag” or they dont “like” as a person. I prefer to pass – a nasty attitude or unkept has a “yuck” factor that is a major turn off.
      My ex-wife who was my first can confirm this.
      If she wanted my affection (emotional and/or physical) she had to “nice” (ie reciprocity). Not all women are in control of copulation – some men are very very picky on who/when they give their power to.
      Shalom

      • Marissa says:

        That’s why I don’t want to be with him anymore because he’s a mean man. Always putting me down, insulting me in front of the children. Even when I have given and done everything for him. All i want is help around the house every once in a while and for him to treat me like his wife, not like every other person off the street. I am a very sexual person, 5’5′, 130lbs and make quite a bit of money in my job. I can’t ask him to do anything without him interpreting me as being a nag. I don’t know how much more gentle I’m supposed to be. I believe he uses it as an excuse to avoid doing much. I feel like I have a 3rd child with him. But when he wants sex, he’s nice alright and asks what he can help with, but after sex, that’s it. I’m sure I would have no problem finding another husband after him, but I’m being unselfish and thinking about the kids.

    • Rose says:

      Marissa, I am sorry that you have had to experience infidelity in your marriage. I will be praying that God will do a work of forgiveness in your life and will give you a desire to restore your broken marriage, so He will have the glory. I will pray that your husband will have a heart of conviction and repentance and a desire to restore your broken marriage, so God will have the glory. I have been through two marriages of unfaithfulness to our vows, I would have stayed in both marriages because of my marriage vows, and I don’t believe in divorce. Both times, my husbands chose to leave for good. Since commenting on this original post, I have married a wonderful godly man, who is the leader in our home. I have no fear that he will be unfaithful. God has done a work in me.

      The Bible does not say that once children are created, sex is over. The Bible says that when you marry, your body is no longer your own, it belongs to your husband and his body belongs to you. We are not to deny each other sexually, except for a time to draw closer to God. It can be found in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5: The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

      I will pray that God will take away the bitterness you now feel and will begin to grow a love for your husband, the way God intended. I pray that your husband will love his wife, the way God intended. I pray your children will learn, through this, that marriage is not about giving up when things get tough, but is a life long commitment to GOD, more than each other. Love God more than your husband, pray FOR him and pray WITH him. If you would like to talk more, please feel free to email me privately.

      • Marissa says:

        Maybe I missed it but I can’t seem to find your email. I might just have to email you. It’s gotten really bad. I worry so much for my children, 19 months and a 4 yr old with autism. I’m at the end of my rope.
        :'(

        • What was the courtship like? How did he choose you, and how did you choose him? What was the evaluation procedure and how long did it last? Did you make him fill out a long questionnaire, and force him to pass the Father interview? I had to pass two four-hour worldview interviews with lots of apologetics and theology and politics before I could even go for a walk with the young lady I was courting. And even then it was public places only. I recommend to young women that they marry virgins because then you have evidence that the man can keep it under control. And I would insist that young ladies interview the past girlfriends. I always send reference letters from my previous ones to the current candidate.

        • Here’s my nasty list of questions that I use to get rid of all the bad candidates:

          http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/courting-rules-how-to-tell-if-a-woman-is-really-a-christian-or-not/

          You won’t like this, but it scares away all the bad women. I mean you REALLY won’t like it. But it does work to find the few good ones.

          • Marissa says:

            So I assume you’re not married. That list is impossible. I think the only women who can correctly answer each of these questions are nuns.

          • I’m not married, but the list is really not meant to be answered on the first date. The right person is interested in reading and learning. So there have been several candidates that could answer them, it just takes them time. Although the list sounds hard, be assured that I know how to motivate someone to be engaged. Once women see what needs to be done and have the right role models, they do amazing things. They invent plans and carry them out. One of my exes did her economics degree then edited a small newspaper. Another one is in law school and organizes events like a recent apologetics conference. Another gives speeches, leads book studies and shows debates in her home. I don’t tell them to do any of this, they just read stuff and listen to me complain about politics and church and stuff and then they do things! And then I give them tons of love, gifts, etc. as they work. Women are amazing when they see what you are concerned about. They want to help. Well, some do.

            In other news, I’m going to turn off comments on this post.

        • Permit me to ask a couple obvious questions.
          -Was the “infidelity” emotional, physical(adultery), or visual (p*rn) ?
          -How was this “infidelity” addressed / remedied ?
          – Was sought professional help or outside intervention sought?

          Given the statements you made regarding $$$$$, excellent professional intervention/assistance should not be a issue.

  29. Are you going to counseling & seeking assistance from family friends etc ?

  30. Marissa says:

    I think these posts are disgusting and demeaning to all people. How can you say women should just have sex even if they’re not in the mood? This can be likened to rape. My body does not belong to my husband, God didn’t write the Bible, MAN did. How did they know what God’s thoughts were. It’s totally ambiguous. Disgusting!

    • JMG says:

      Marissa,

      I think you are misinterpreting what the verses actually say. They are not saying that your body belongs to your husband (nor his to you) to the extent that you do whatever he wants at the drop of a hat. What they are saying is that you have in your vows each committed yourselves one to another so that neither of you should withhold what belongs to the other for a prolonged period either for your own satisfaction or as a form of penalizing the other. The verses are not saying that you are wrong to pass on particular occasions, but rather that you are wrong to pass for a prolonged period of time for selfish reasons. They also assume an active Christian bond between both parties.

      The Bible, although penned by man, was inspired by God. In the same way a sailboat is moved along in a particular direction by the wind, so these writers were moved along in their thoughts by God as they wrote. Whenever their thoughts might have wandered in the wrong direction, then just as a boats sail goes limp as it is turned off wind, so their thoughts did likewise.

      I Peter 1:21

      “For no prophecy (scripture) was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke (and wrote) from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

      That same Bible also specifies (Ephesians 5:25) that husbands are to “love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it”, if they expect their wives to be respectful and obedient to their wishes and leadership.

      Its a two way street, and the husband is to supply selfless, devoted leadership as a pre-requisite to any submissiveness on the part of his wife. If the husband fulfills his Biblical role, and the wife does not respond in kind, then she is wrong. If the husband rejects his Biblical role, then the wife is not obligated to submit to him unless she so chooses in an effort to touch his conscience.

      The whole thing as I said though, ideally assumes both parties are Christians who are in the bond of marriage acknowledging God’s guidance through what He has spoken in the scriptures. If the couple are not Christians, each with no recognition that God has spoken in the words of the Old and New Testaments, then of course this whole thing won’t make any sense to them.

      JMG

  31. !!! NO MORE COMMENTS.
    Please, no more comments on this thread. I think we really need to start a new one. I’ll re-post on this topic later in the week and we can use that one.
    !!! NO MORE COMMENTS.

  32. eddie r says:

    In my case I try everything possible without her asking me to do anything! Cook, do my own laundry, wash dishes, give her compliments often etc etc.. We have sex once every 2 weeks!! I don’t think that’s fair, but since we’re men we can’t say anything about it because it’s nonsense. It’s always about how the wife feels and what she wants.

    • Frank A says:

      Eddie R, what you just posted could have easily been posted by me except you and your spouse at least engage in intimacy and sex every two weeks. I’ve seen similar posts on this same subject on this thread….it seems that there is a “Super Secret” three ring binder out there somewhere that many women refer to for excuses and reasons to not engage in intimacy with their husbands.

  33. […] statement (read the original article by Dennis Prager here) may seem offensive to many people. After all, women are now liberated so they should not feel […]

  34. wbmoore says:

    One doesnt have to have experience driving a car to research automobiles for quality and problems and how to address any possible problems that might come up.

  35. LGD says:

    OK as a woman I can agree . Here is my problem what if the problem is the opposite? What is the man’s responsibility? BC I am always begging,pleading an bitchin I can’t get any ! Then u find out he is masturbating but not giving u any but swears there is no one else. So after 2 yrs living together the 1st year was great by start 2nd decline went to no 1time month if lucky. So were engaged but who wants marry someone who is with holding sex from the women out there ? Help me understand their responsibility.

    • They should not be withholding sex. If the man is a Christian, then try to encourage him to listen to 1 Corinthians 7:1-5. He has to comply with that standard, if he claims to be a follower of Jesus.

    • LGD,

      Both husband and wife are commanded in Scripture not to deprive each other of sex. However, your comment makes me wonder if you are married. It sounds like you are engaged and living together, but perhaps I misunderstood.

      If you are married, you should work this out with your husband, point out that as his wife you have a right to expect him to meet his sexual needs with you and to fulfill your sexual needs too. That’s a part of what marriage entails. Explain your needs in a calm and rational manner and put it in terms of wanting to be closer to him, not demanding your rights. Get counselling if necessary. And certainly stop “bitching” about it. That has never worked on any man in the history of the universe.

      If you are not married, you have no right to have sex with him at all and should not be having sex. Sex is for marriage.

  36. Frank - Texas says:

    I’ve been living in virtually a non-intimate, non-sexual marriage for the last ten of our 27years. Has not been easy and certainly has tax’d and strained our relationship. Been to five different counselor (All were femals, three of ‘em were Christian counselors). While she considers herself a Christian I suspect she is one of those “Chose & Pick” type Christians. I have attempted to discuss the Biblical view of sex in a Christian marriage and her only argument is, “That is just a view by men in the Bible to get sex”. Her final argument in almost all the discussions is that, “People our age (75 & 69) should not be so concerned about intimacy,touching,holding hands and sex” and “Too bad about YOUR needs….how about MINE”.

    Of course, all one hears from the pulpit, or Sunday message at church is, “Marriage is forever, you do what you can and you suck it up and go on with life….God,never promised that life would be easy.”

    • That’s so sad. I feel so sorry for men in that situation. But I also (sometimes) feel sorry for the women too. They’ve somehow believed lies about sex and are depriving themselves of the wonderful pleasure and intimacy that God designed for them to have in marriage. Sex isn’t just for men – it’s for women too. But too often women don’t realize what they’re missing when they reject sex.

      Just for the record, your wife is dead wrong. Sex and other physical intimacy was designed for married people of all ages. The Bible is clear on God’s design. It specifically tells men to delight in the wife of their youth – suggesting that they continue to do that even when they’re no longer young. And, of course, the Biblical command not to deprive each other has no age limits on it. Unfortunately, you knowing that doesn’t help your situation…your wife needs to realize this and act on it to renew intimacy in your marriage. A “Christian” counselor who doesn’t make this clear and who doesn’t even attempt to help you resume marital intimacy is a bad one.

      All I can tell you at this point is that pointing our her duty to engage in sex probably isn’t going to work – especially if she is more concerned about her own needs than yours. You need to pray for a heart change in her. You need to do everything you can to be the husband God calls you to be, even in she isn’t being the wife she should be. And keep in mind a heavenly perspective that you will be rewarded for doing what you are supposed to do.

      In the meantime, there’s a couple websites I can recommend that you might show your wife.

      http://www.tolovehonorandvacuum.com has a lot of articles about Christian marriage, most of which talk about sex. The author, Sheila, has articles about everything from how to make it feel good to why marital intimacy is important to how to get yourself in the mood. It’s written mostly for women. She also has a couple of books – The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex and 31 Days to Great Sex. Both of these have helped a lot of people with this sort of problem.

      Another good blog is http://www.oysterbed7.com. This blog is written by an older married woman who has struggled with libido issues and she talks about how to improve libido, why sex is important in marriage, and how to keep the spark going as you get older.

    • DrewJ says:

      I would most likely divorce in that circumstance. And I am not pro-divorce.

  37. william orlando says:

    My wife and I just went our separate ways a little over a week ago. I am not upset over losing my wife we have both agreed on a 72 hour interval for our kids. My wife and I had not had sex in over 2 years I found myself going into a hatred state and finally said enough was enough. For ten years I found myself working maintaining a home attempting to please my wolife any way possible. I know the end of our marriage is also my fault just because I started hating the one I was supposed to love forever. This was my 1st and only marriage her secondd. I adopted her son from another marriage. Now I am lost for I have failed.

    • I have found it remarkable in my own experience how a woman can have such a sense of entitlement that she puts nothing into relationships with her husband or children and yet still has this expectation that they will continue to do what they are doing for her. It’s the strangest thing – a complete lack of awareness that she is taking from others and giving nothing back. And then if you raise the issue with her you get evasions, insults, rationalizations or tantrums. The topic of how she must sacrifice for the good of others cannot even be discussed. It’s one of the major things that puts me off of marriage and one of the main reasons that I put so much emphasis on leading a woman to do hard things (apologetics) during courtship.

    • Monica says:

      Sorry, but you did not fail. If you have cherished her as the bible commands and she refuses you, that is not failure on your part. Her walk with god is hers alone, and not all are elected. Not everyone will make it. It’s like the Islamic principal of you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

      A 72 hour hiatus may not work. Dont think many can find god in just a mere 72 hours. But the fact that you have stood by her for 2 years without, means you must truly love her. If you truly love her then show her the way as Jesus did. Not by condemning or pressuring her. But try reading scripture with her, talk with your pastor,that’s all you can do. Everyone’s road to salvation is their own, married or not. We all don’t come to Christ in the same time or age.

      I commend you,as a woman, for standing by her. Dig deeper to find the reasons why she is struggling. If she is what you truly want, don’t look at it as a failure, but your test as well. Come together as partners, help her on her road to salvation without pointing out her sins. Remember, hard as it may be you are not her judge, but her partner to help her In sickness and health, richer or poorer, and something never mentioned, when her faith is lacking.

      • Frank says:

        I read with interest the views regarding the non-intimate, non-sexual marriage because as my previous entries indicate I’ve been tusseling with this for over ten years. This past weekend after many ‘promises’ from my wife (none kept) I explained to her that the stress is going to kill me (I had heart attack 17yr.ago, prostate cancer 12yr.ago). She immediately (as usual) said my past health issues were just excuses from me and sympathetic male doctors. I advised her I was NOT going to live the rest of my life (I’m 75) in a non-intimate, non-sexual relationship/environment. I guess I have my answer…after she yelled at me before getting up and walking off, “You know, I (meaning her) DON’T have to be married to you or anyone!”
        I’m not sure, but I suspect it was actually in response to something I had referred to from, “No More Christian Nice Guy” book: “Sexual intimacy let’s a man know that you care about him and him only; it’s how he feels special.”

  38. rachel says:

    Is anyone still following this thread? I’m in desperate need of some advice and reading the views on here this might be the place to ask :) x

    • Frank says:

      RACHEL! I have been going your husband’s experience for the past 10+ years, and I am sure he suddenly feels it is not going to improve. So, he’s trying to “suck it up and go with the flow”, but that becomes dangerously stressful (for him, healthwise). We husbands will bend a whole lot, but when we get to the breaking point (with no explanations or efforts) we go into the “Survival Mode”. I went into a very angry mood this morning when I found my driver’s license was missing. The more I search the more angry I became and ended up says some really choice “Navy slangs” . Wife got upset and left for work without saying goodbye or anything. I look back on it now and I remembered that she had “Rejected” my hints and advances again, AFTER she had promised from two weeks ago, she would make an effort towards intimacy. I called her office and apologized for my anger, and the only things she said was, “Well, Thanks….at least that is a start.” and hung up.
      Now, I am a guy who does all the grocery shopping, cooking, paying bills, washing clothes, making the bed, looking after her car, seeing her Rx’s are filled on time, etc. . And, all I am wanting is some occasional intimacy, touching and maybe some sexual intimacy….but, apparently I’m not good enough for such an effort on her part.
      I don’t think he is being “Evil”, I believe he is being “Stressed” to the breaking point.
      FRANK

  39. […] statement (read the original article by Dennis Prager here) may seem offensive to many people. After all, women are now liberated so they should not feel […]

  40. rachel says:

    Hi, my relationship is falling apart and I’m desperate to get it back on track. My partner and I have a young daughter together and I have two other children from a previous relationship that live with us. Everything was great until I fell pregnant. I was quite ill during the pregnancy, the birth nearly killed me and our daughter and then for the first 6 months I had severe post natal depression and struggled to bond. He was fantastic through everything. We’ve had some difficulties and he’s been supportive and really great. He does everything I could want and more. Obviously whilst pregnant and ill, sex was virtually non existent, after the birth again virtually nothing. All because I had no desire at all, and he was great and understanding. A year and a half later, I’ve still no interest in sex and to be honest, the slightest touch from me, sets things stirring so I try to avoid any contact at all so I don’t ‘lead’ him on.
    For the last 6 months or so things have been awful. He will be fine for about 2/3 weeks. Then he’ll get a bit snappy, saying he’s tired for a few days. Then he will blow up for no real reason. Last month it was because I’d cleaned all the holey socks out of his drawer. This month he flared up because I asked him why the kids having two biscuits when they came home from school was a problem? Each time it happens it gets worse. He says all the things he knows will hurt me, throws it back at me I wanted nothing to do with my own child, and other personal attacks. When I ask him why he’s being like it he says because I know it will hurt you and that he’s sick of my nagging and undermining him (ie asking wats the problem with kids having biscuits). He’s even threatened to take my daughter away, purely because he can. After a couple of days of constant snide comments or no talking at all, or a night away at his sisters, he apologises, says he meant none of it, and he promises it won’t happen again and everything’s fine for another 3 weeks, until the next flare up. It’s almost like he has bad PMT!!
    What I’m wondering is, after reading all these comments do you think it could be the no sex? He’s lucky if he gets it once every couple months. I’ve been to doctors about it and been told it’s normal after everything I went through and my desire will come back ONE day and he keeps saying he understands and it isn’t a problem.
    I don’t want to make excuses for him if he’s just being an a**hole but in the same hand I don’t want to throw away what until recently was the best relationship I could ever have.
    Ok essay over, and hopefully have some useful advice thrown back…. if there’s anyone reading lol.

    • I would definitely think that some sort of sexual activity could not hurt. Have you read the Five Love Languages? What would you say that his love language is?

      It sounds like he is being very mean. If you put in an effort to try to show that you care about him it might work. If it doesn’t work then it might be just him being evil. The only thing to do now is to try, I guess.

    • Just one question, first. When you say he’s your “partner” do you mean a husband or a live-in boyfriend?

    • Paul says:

      Hi Rachel,

      I would suggest that you find ways of giving him physical intimacy. See if you can find ways that would avoid going to far outside of your current comfort zone. To me and my own experience what you are describing will only spiral further out of control than it already has. It sounds like what you might be communicating unintentionally is “I don’t want you” and that will emasculate him over time.

      I do not know if you are a Christian and whether this will mean much but I will pray for you.

      Paul

  41. rachel says:

    Never heard of it before. Off to google I go lol x

  42. no progress says:

    I could really use some advice. I don’t know if anyone is still reading this, but I am at my wit’s end. I married my wife and for 9 years our marriage was great. I deploy, come back, and my wife’s libido is gone (before deployment, I couldn’t keep up with her). In the past 3 years, I can count on one hand how many times we have had sex. I have talked with her about it on numerous occasions and she tells me that she doesn’t know why she doesn’t want sex. For about a year of those three, I tried spontaneously bringing her flowers, planning dates (both the fancy and cutesy-picnic-in-the-park kind), doing a bunch of housework, cooking dinners, spending time with the kids so she could have alone time, asking her to cuddle on the couch with me to watch some movie, etc. None of it helped, so after that year (had sex exactly once during that time – and it was her laying back expecting me to do all the work), I had a talk with her to find out what I was doing wrong. She told me that I was wonderful but she was having trouble getting “in the mood”.

    Another year and a half since that has past and nothing has changed. All I want is for things to go back to where we were for that 9 years. I cannot figure out what changed while I was gone, which drives me crazy. My mother and my wife have both told me that I need to just not worry about it so much, which I guess is easy for them to say. I no longer feel like a man, just a shell. I have zero confidence. I have shown her all kinds of information that shows that this is not just a “me” problem, and she reads it and says that she needs to improve. But then she doesn’t. I am at my wit’s end trying to fix this issue.

    We saw a marriage counselor for 6 months, but all he did was talk about all the stuff I was supposedly not doing for her. Well, yeah, not anymore! None of that stuff made a difference. At the 4 month mark I finally got fed up and said that if all this stuff were going to work then why didn’t it when I did it before? He was taken aback and asked why I never mentioned that I had done all this. I told him the real question was why didn’t my wife mention any of this before and walked out the door. She was in there for another half hour. I don’t know what was said, but my next session was back to the same-old, same-old. I stuck with it for another two months hoping that things would improve. I would voice my issues with what was going on there, but they were largely brushed away with the idea that I “must be doing something wrong or we wouldn’t be here”.

    So, here I sit, having trouble with being “in the mood” to be married. I have been reaching out for the past year, looking for some assistance that might bring her back. I haven’t found anything that has worked, and I am getting exhausted of being married to the equivalent of my room mate. We don’t even really share the finances since she got her bank account that she can’t explain why she needs. I’ll just add that to ever-growing list of behaviors that she “can’t explain”. I sometimes wonder if she did ever find herself, if she would like what she sees.

    And, to make this book of a comment longer, I have to say that she spends most of her time on the computer playing an MMO, making jokes of a sexual nature towards her friends. I am sitting in the living room and can hear it when she does it, and it stings everytime she does. I have told her this, and she says she will stop, but yet again another lie.

    So, at this point, this is just a hail mary pass before I go down the long and complicated divorce road. I don’t want to at all. We have kids, whom I love and adore and would never do anything to hurt. She is a great mom as well. I am in so much pain, though, that it is hard to keep the smile on my face around my kids, and they have to sense that something isn’t right no matter how hard I try to hide it.

    Thank you all in advance. I hope there is something I can do to fix this.

    • A woman’s sex drive is different from a man’s. In general, men get a greater urge for sex the longer it has been. Women, on the other hand, tend to have more desire for sex when they’re having sex regularly. There are exceptions, of course, but women do often find that going without for a long period of time can decrease libido. Sometimes the answer in such cases is just to jump in and start having sex and the desire will follow.

      Women also have the kind of sex drive that is primarily responsive, rather than primed and ready like a man. Women tend to turn on in response to touch and closeness. Thus, deciding to engage in sex, even if they don’t feel like it at first, often results in them having a good time after all. Many women don’t know this, though.

      I’ve written about this on my blog: http://www.lindsays-logic.blogspot.com/2014/07/should-you-only-have-sex-when-you-feel.html

      In this case, however, it looks like the problem is deeper than just lack of sex, although that is certainly a serious aspect of the problem. The separate bank account and secrecy is a big red flag. One has to wonder if she is seeing someone else or has just checked out of the marriage and doesn’t want to fix it.

      I would ask her if she’s interested in having a close, intimate, healthy marriage again or if she’s happy with the status quo. Make it clear that you are NOT happy with the status quo and expect some effort on her part to work on the marriage because it is not healthy and not working for you. A marriage isn’t a healthy marriage unless both people are getting their needs met.

      I wouldn’t say the word divorce. Your children need you both and even a “congenial” divorce will harm them immensely.

      However, there is a time to put your foot down and insist on your needs being met. If that means forbidding her to play her online game or even cancelling the internet at your home to prevent it, that may be necessary.

      You might even go so far as to tell her that if she sees sex as an exchange where you have to do certain things to get sex, you’re willing to do that, but it has to be fair, with agreed upon rules. Then make everything a trade. She wants you to take out the trash, wash the dishes, and put the kids to bed? Ok, but that will cost her 15 minutes of intercourse tonight. Otherwise, you don’t feel like it.

      Make it clear that you can trade help around the house and providing for the family for sex, but you would rather simply both be generous with each other and not keep score. Tell her you want her to want you and want your marriage to be close and vibrant and fulfilling. But being generous is a two-way street that requires both of you to give freely, whether you “feel like it” or not. Otherwise, it’s just an impersonal trade. I’m guessing she doesn’t want that, so maybe seeing what using sex as a bargaining tool actually does to real intimacy will get her attention.

      • no progress says:

        Lindsay,

        First of all, thank you for the response. I don’t know if secrecy is the right word here. She has to have her own bank account, but I insisted on having the password to check it online. She gave that up willingly. So, I am able to look at her account whenever I want. Wierd.

        I also don’t think the sex-for-chores or whatever really applies here either, as I tried that before. I did everything for a year. It didn’t make a difference. I even told her that I was going to quit because it wasn’t making a difference in our sex life and that if she would just have sex with me more often, then I would keep doing it. Obviously, she chose not to get that stuff anymore.

        I was a little defeatest in my last post, and I am feeling a little better today, so maybe some more details will help:

        She has been wierd about things. She recently started to be worried about money. How much we have, what we are doing with it, etc. I keep checking both mine and her accounts, and no strange activity. This has been coupled with a decrease in her spending. Just started happening about 6 months ago. I have just chalked it up to more of her “checking out” of the marriage.

        The strangest part is the stuff she does. She sends me texts saying, “I love you”. Just randomly. Even when we are with eachother. Sometimes she will send me an e-mail after I’ve gone to bed that she can’t wait to see me tomorrow. One time, I was taking a nap on the couch and she sent me a text telling me that I look cute there sleeping.

        I think that last stuff is what has really gotten me angry. I feel like she thinks that telling me she loves me somehow makes up for not showing it. Like it lets her off the hook. What a crock. I must follow this up with the fact that I do not know what she is thinking.

        As far as cheating is concerned, she would have to be the world’s best cover-up artist if she was. I can track her phone via GPS and sometimes pop in at work or meet her at the store without her knowing (this has started in the last year or so). I have checked phone records (even against her phone – another thing she will just hand me willingly). I have checked all over for another or different phone she could be using. I checked our router logs to see what websites she has been going to. She has no communication apps other than Facebook and her in-game chat. Neither of those have shown anything suspicious (the in-game chat has a log file that I can easily see from my own computer across the network). Most of this stuff she doesn’t even know I am doing. So, I have pretty much ruled it out (although when she started getting concerned about money, I was back on the hunt again).

        I don’t know why she is concerned about money. That concerns me, but when I ask, she just says that she wants to make sure that we have money for the kid’s college funds and retirement. I like that she is saving money, but I don’t like not knowing what made her flip like that.

        In the end, I have no idea what’s going on in her head, and I used to know her so well. I think that’s what hurts the most. If I just knew what was going on to cause her to act like this, then I would be much more at peace with it. Even if it meant it was time for us to go our separate ways.

    • Frank says:

      My friend I wish the best for you and I feel you I do. I wish you never had to go though this stress and suffering. I have a lot of respect for people who serve their country and thank you by the way for doing what you do. It’s not your fault by the way. Don’t blame yourself.

      I had a lot of friends who have played those mmo’s and I’ve even played them. I’ve know military men and women who played them and I’ve also experienced lack of “drive.” I”ll tell you some of my experiences it might help you think things over.

      First in mmo’s. I played one for 6 years and i’ve known many people. There are much more men than women in these mmos and the men are DESPERATE to get at these women. I even joked once that mmo’s get more people together as couples than dating websites.

      This is what happens… once men find out there is a women it’s like a moth to a flame. The men give the women in game gold, items, do long repetitive tasks for them, and give them attention. The women see all these men doing these things and feel like a queen. They feel much more special and important then they did before they played and their personality will change to reflect this. People get addicted to mmo’s too so add the dopamine high you get and it’s quite the nice feeling.

      Many of these mmo’s have subscription fees I knew dozens of female friends who had their fee’s paid for by men. I also know many of the women got the men to pay their bills and even for school and other things.

      I can tell you some stories of what happens on mmo’s….

      I knew this girl and she had a boyfriend she lived with for many many years. She met a guy on a mmo who had schizophrenia and was on disability for life. She fell in love with him. (Note… if you think hitchhiking is dangerous look away now lol.)
      She got a person in the game she never met in real life to drive her to the new guy house to live with him. All without ever meeting the guy in real life, just on a video game. Everyone in the game respected and loved her for this and I told her she was crazy/nuts. In return she told everyone I was in love with her. This is how messed up mmo’s are. This girl also cheated on her boyfriend many times before this without him knowing.

      Many of the people I know also had this happen to them…. The husband played MMO’s. The wife did not and got annoyed cause the husband would spend so long on the MMO. The husband would get their wife to play. The wife would get addicted and get upset when the husband asked them to get off. The wife eventually met another man and left their husband. This one was extremely common. You could also replace wife with girlfriend etc.

      I have many more stories from my many years of knowing people in mmo’s but you get the idea. Many relationships have been messed up like this. It’s because of the dopamine high of playing, the feeling your important, the attention and the love high.

      These things are true what I have said. To the people who say they are not….. Many are addicted to mmo’s and it’s like a drug to them.. When others say bad things about mmo’s, mmo users get upset. They don’t want to think about the bad things that go on because the bad things hurt. They also don’t want to admit or think about the shameful things that they do and allow to happen. They don’t want others to know the kinds of people they associate with. They want others to think what they are into is wonderful. Just like a person who drinks a lot says they are not an alcoholic.

      The her not being intimate thing is not your fault by the way. It’s her’s. Your a good decent person and don’t let anyone bring you down. Demand better of yourself and find someone who will love you fully. It’s hard to believe but it won’t get better. While you have your youth find that person who will love you. Don’t wait. Time is precious more then you know.

  43. Jack says:

    I think your right on what you said in your article. Women these days only think about their rights and they don’t think about men at all.

    Women don’t need intercourse often and often don’t want it much especially in long relationships. They look down on men for wanting it as much as they do and they do indeed think we are hairy women. Men are different, men want intercourse and it’s a part of them. This should be respected and men should not be made to feel degraded by woman who think less of men for being who they are since the beginning of time.

    To men intercourse is like food, it’s a need and when they don’t get it a part of them suffers. It’s a hunger that adds up. It hurts over time. Imagine the divorces and relationship failures that happen because women don’t care about this need in men and treat it like a joke. Then the man gets blamed and is made to look bad because cheating happens or some other really desperate act.

    Lack of intercourse feels like starvation in a man. Would you care if you starved without food? How long could you go without eating. Imagine if someone plopped down a steak or pizza. Could you resist it after being hungry for so long. When people are hungry they do desperate things. History show many cases of desperate things being done when hungry, even cannibalism. Starving equals desperate.

    Here is an example. Lets say there are two different creatures. One needs to eat once every 2 months to survive, the other once a day. Lets say these two people get lost while on a hike for 1 month without food. The person who needs to eat every day gets desperate and needs food but to the other person they just scratch their head and think… .”Hmmmm I’m not hungry, I don’t understand why this other person is licking rocks and eating snails and dirt? They are disgusting!” they think to themselves.

    Imagine a world with little food and being a creature who only needs to eat once every 2 months. You would be at an advantage compared to the creature that needs to eat once every day. Imagine offering food to the starving creatures to get what you want and making them do what you want.

    • Monica says:

      Hi jack,

      Being the evil, horrible woman I am, I’m gonna interject. You are equating sex as food. First off, your wife IS NOT FOOD!!! If you are single and hunting down prey, theb yes, all the loose women would be looked upon as food, simply satisfying a ‘need.’ But you are married correct??? Marriage has a far deeper connection than just an animalistic ‘need.’

      Being married to the ‘one,’ no matrix pun intended, means you are coming as close to god as we humans physically can. God made marriage for that connection of becoming one. Not just for a need. If u r treating sex as a ‘need’ in your relationship, I could understand why your wife would be turned off. We are not just objects to be poked at will. We need the deeper emotional connection that comes with sex. And if you’re not giving your wife your all and treating her as a ‘need’ that needs to be fulfilled then you missed the point of marriage altogether.

      Sorry to be another thorn in your crown, but we want to CONNECT with you in ways never thought possible. And once you reach that connection with your partner, sex will no longer be a ‘need,’ but something far different and more meaningful. So stop treating her like a vessel to satisfy just your needs, and treat her as the magical woman that god created. Cuz trust me, once u make that connection, your entire outlook on sex will change!!! And so will hers once she feels like a woman that is respected and honored during the act, instead of a piece of meat.

      • Jack says:

        Hi Monica,

        Marriage does not mean much these days. Marriage is an ancient religious sacrament. In older days men and women could not live together without marrage or they would be shamed in their community. If they had a baby outside of marrage the women would be shipped off to a “religious” institution until she had her baby, then it would be put up for adoption to avoid shame. Times have changed! Now divorces are simple and easy. There is no such thing as “the one.” Not many people stay together unhappy forever to avoid shame in the community or church anymore.

        Do you really think God would make a human being who makes loads of mistakes promise to him that two people would stay together NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS? If the man beats the woman or the woman beats the man do they stay together forever? If one person cheats guess what? Your fantasy marrage can’t be ended cause you promised to God you would stay with that person forever. Do you think it’s ok when people break promises? If promises are expected to be broken they why make the promise? Your not coming as close to God as you can be being with the person you think as “the one.” Romantic love has nothing to do with God. When I think of God I think of a force who made us. I don’t think of God as a lover or have romantic ideas about him.

        In moden days people don’t need to be marriage and they don’t stay in something they hate because of fear like they used to. Here is a cool fact, Did you know you can love someone fully and forever without being married? God won’t punish you for this and words on paper won’t guarantee a magical perfect life with your loved one. Marriage won’t keep you locked into someone forever or prevent cheating or loss of interest. Divorces and seperations are available. It’s not like in old times.

        I had a friend who had “the one” and one day she picked up “the one’s” cell phone and found out for the last 10 years he was having intercourse with women on his business trips and into wild things I can’t even mention on here. Sometimes you think your life is perfect but it’s not. If she never picked up his cell phone she could have been unaware of this for another 10 years. The thing is you don’t know. You can assume your life is perfect but there can be a hidden side your totally unware of.

        As far as your references to God maybe you should prey to him to learn how to be a decent nice person cause your paragraph is loaded with negative bitter aggressive insecure nasty comments. You make loads of aggressive assumptions based on your life and think everyone should follow your example. You think you know everything and that you know me and make comments that degrade me. I don’t treat women like meat and I don’t treat anyone badly. I don’t have to defend myself against anyone as horrible as you are.

        Oh and judging by the way you speak down to me….. your husband must be really luckly to have you LOL. I can only imagine how rude and nasty you really are to him. I mean if you’d say those things to me I can only imagine what your home life is like.

        I know women are not food if you read I said it’s a urge similar to the hunger of food which men feel. I never said a person was food. Here are some examples for you to understand….If I said i’m as cold as ice it does not mean i’m actually ice. If I said my blood was boiling I don’t mean it’s physicaly boiling etc etc.

        The thing is you don’t know what it’s like to be a man and you never will.

        Lets pretend the man is perfect in every way possible, I know it’s hard for you cause men are bad right????. Well lets pretend the man is perfect in every single way. What if the woman just does not want sex with him and he’s tried everything possible.

        Did you know things can be a womans fault too? Yes amazing huh I thought women were perfect too (just like you are right?) But yeah it’s not always 100 percent the mans fault. The man is not always the evil beast. Women can also cheat and lie and if they don’t want sex sometimes they just don’t care about their partner or how they feel. What if the man does everything perfect and the women does not care to have sex with the man?

        Your last paragraph was disgusting in my opinion. Your disrespect and how you think so lowly of me is just really disgusting. You represented yourself and women as well.
        For one thing you make it seem like i’m a nasty person who treat women horrible. Your make it seem like you have all the answers and that you know much more then me in every way about this. Guess what? You don’t. Your making assumptions and your judging me based on your past attitudes and experiences and you seem really upset and angry.

        You said and I quote

        “So stop treating her like a vessel to satisfy just your needs, and treat her as the magical woman that god created”

        I don’t treat any women like a vessel to satisfy my needs. Thats your own assumption based on you limited inexperienced and insecure life. I don’t wear a crown, i’m only assuming you think i’m pretending i’m a king? I treat everyone equal. I treat everyone good and I go out of my way to do things for people. I am very humble. I love romance. Long walks on the beach, in a blanket looking at stars. I love putting my hand on their heart and saying.. I love you. I could go on and on. Sex is not everying but it is needed. Two people together without sex are called room mates. If a couple connects and are in love but suddenly the woman changes and decides she is no longer interested in sex for the entire relationship then what? What if a man said one say to a woman.. “I don’t love you anymore but I want to stay together forever.” Would hurt huh?

        You seem religious so you should be familar with this …. “Judge not lest ye be judged.” You judged me and now i’ll judge and assume things about you. By your bitter angry little comments you sound like in the past you met a guy who treated you like garbage and you left him or he dumped you. Then you had hate towards men boil inside you. Then you met another guy who would put up with your horrible abuse and while you were in the infatuation stage felt that he was “the one” and no one can ever feel such a connection as I. I know EVERYTHING about love and I will boss my man at home around and control him cause i’m never letting anyone hurt me ever again like in the past. All the while being as aggressive to men as you can be.

        Guess what? Life changes. Things don’t always stay perfect. Sometimes someone can be perfect and try as hard as they can and they still get treated like garbage by the one they love or care about.

        Your very religious so i’ll try to reach you on that level. Remember Jesus? He was perfect and people hurt and bashed him. Sometimes bad things do happen to good decent people.

        • Monica says:

          Dude get off your testosterone train!! You totally misunderstood what I was saying!!! I was pointing out how women feel like they are pieces of meat to men when a man constantly begs for sex, or just gropes her, without the one on one emotional connection we need. And daily tasks don’t fulfill that emotional connection.

          Nor did I ever claim to be perfect … NO ONE IS!!! And god did give us sex as a gift, that is his gift to us to come as close to him as we physically can.

          Nor did I say you were a horrible person. And no I don’t hate men, sorry. I respect men that do all these things for their wives, I have a more traditional husband of 25 yrs, that won’t help around the house ‘it’s woman’s work,’ but know what, I then expect him to fulfill his duties as the traditional man. Which is provide, support, and defend his family.

          And YES BOTH SIDES CHEAT!!! Women definitely cheat when they are not receiving the one on one emotional connection. Women cheat for a completely different reason then men. Men and women look at sex as polar opposites. I may never know what blue balls for a man is like, but you will never know the deep connection women crave with their men either, and her turning away is her wanting you to make that deep connection happen. It like the old saying … ‘A silent woman is waiting for you to respond to her silence.’

          Sorry you misunderstood what I was saying, I was speaking in ‘general’ of how women feel and are. We are complicated, very complicated creatures, that need way more than just the act itself. That’s the end result of reaching her on her level and it will be willingly. That’s just how we are!!

          And since you want to bring Jesus into it, Jesus said love your wife as he loves the church. That Means respect and honor her. Ruth in the bible, a book not many have ever read or even know about, is a good example of a woman waiting for the ‘one.’ And yes it does happen, and you are provided that ‘one,’ as god himself promised to you. And yes we are all sinners. Not once does the bible mention us as greater than thou, hence why Jesus died for our sins etc. And today’s laws do make divorce easy. But just as god will send the right one for you, so too will satan deliver the one that puts us through hell, like the serial cheater or wife beater, and that goes both ways. It’s an eternal battle for souls, if you believe what is written. Sorry you misunderstood and mistook some sarcasm and humor.

          • Jack says:

            I don’t think it’s about me being on a train although I do like trains. I do enjoy much of what you said and find it interesting.

            You did address it to me by name and address much of the stuff at me and it was in response to what I said. I don’t know why you would mean it for someone else and not me or what I talked about.

            I do appreciate apologies when they are sincere. However the way you said it was… “Sorry you misunderstood.” and “Sorry you mistook.” What you are basically doing is apologizing to yourself and not me, because you think I did not understand or mistook what you said. That shifts fault on me and not on you. Sincere or real apologies accept the blame and do not blame it on another. It’s seems like a type of passive aggressive apology without empathy or compassion which means it’s not like a real apology or sorry.

            I’m not sure if you know this but sarcasm is not a great thing, all over the internet psychologists and religious leaders think it’s negative. I myself can be sarcastic but when I become aware of it or someone points it out I feel bad and try to work on lessening it to become a better person spiritually although it’s not easy at times.

            I was reading this article awhile back and thought I would share it.

            This is by Tyler Huckabee.

            http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life/whole-life/features/28310-americas-obsession-with-sarcasm

            “John Haiman, a linguist at Macalester College in St. Paul, Minn., says people who use sarcasm are rarely just kidding. The words come from an authentic place, but it’s wrapped up as a joke for protection. Essentially, sarcasm is a survival technique for the insecure. It’s used to make yourself appear to be stronger or better, but it’s not said with enough seriousness for anyone to accuse you of being a jerk.”

            All in all though I do appreciate your beliefs and comments and find them interesting.

          • Monica says:

            Sarcasm and levity are not signs of insecurity. The bible is full of levity and sometimes sarcasm. Such as when Paul chastises the church for trying to rule without unity … His example the eye cannot say to the hand, I don’t need you anymore. The head cannot say to the feet, I don’t need you anymore. That would’ve been pretty sarcastic back in those times. Or Jonah being swallowed for his disobedience, then his pouting and sitting in silence for 3 days while being digested, only to be vomited back up on a beach. There’s No doubt the audience chuckled when Jesus commended the vociferous, obstreperous widow for her persistent pestering of the unjust judge and cited her as a successful model of prayer like 18. Or the humor in proverbs regarding the stupid people in the world, and by stupid, yes it means less intelligent, the ignorant and the belligerent. I could go on, both old and New Testament.

            As for me, I’m not insecure in the least. I was an Olympian i for our country in the 80’s in my sporting field, cuz yes I am that old!!!. Even though I don’t ‘technically’ work, i do from home. I am CEO of our family construction company in the US for 18 yrs now, my aunt still runs the Austrian company, the largest, that built the autobahn and bridges in Austria. I also work closely with Kristi Noem, our state representative on one particular issue we have in common, horse slaughter, that we are against, and do many public speaking events. And it was my sarcastic wit that got the point across to many proponents of the issue during a state meeting. And it was particularly on speaking about money the ‘horse slaughter industry’ brings in to the country each year, to which I told Stephanie herseth, at the time, we euthanize and toss away millions of cats and dogs every year and the Asians eat them. So we may as well start selling our shelter dogs and cats to them by the pound since that would be tens of millions of pounds of dogs and cats vs 150,000lbs of usable horse meat each year That would bring in more money to the nation. The entire room understood that and applauded!!! Sarcasm won!! And herseths ridiculous point was quashed, plus the fact that all our old horse meat plants were all foreign owned entities to begin with.

            I am also president of our county’s anti bullying campaign and assist families of children who are tortured by bullies and help them deal and cope with the stresses that brings on. And levity and humor is what reaches these depressed kids and it helps them become stronger in standing up to them. It’s serious as well, but these kids need out of the dark shadows and a snappy wit reaches them. The cops can be anti fun and serious with them, but I get results by getting names where law enforcement doesn’t. I get results and names of what kids are bringing weapons to school, where law enforcement doesn’t. A good rounded sense of humor and kindness get results.

            So insecure, no, but nice try!!

  44. Jack says:

    I never said you were insecure. They were the words of another person in an article wrote by another person. I never “tried anything” as you so said. I just linked you an article that is all.

  45. Jack says:

    I think my browser crashed so i’ll quickly sum it up. It seems the only word you saw in my post was insecure and saw nothing else I wrote. You had a strong reaction. I did not call you insecure it was in a link to an article. Jobs don’t make feelings or emotions turn off or switch on, for example if I got a job as a socceer player would that make me insecure automatically? Throughout history in the news, unfortunately sports stars, singers etc have been found over dosed on drugs or other horrible things. If they were secure do you think it would happen? Everyone has insecure moments in life and to be insecure is to be human. If someone has an entire life without having an insecure moment then that is very strange. Jobs don’t give super powers. I’ve also heard a public speaker say… “If you don’t get butterflies in your stomach, then that is a sign something is wrong.”

    I notice that you listed a resume summary and you are just listing your accomplishments, your association with power figures around the world and that you and powerful and own a business. I’m not sure what giving a summary of a resume has to do with anything in these posts? If someone is poor or if they don’t know powerful people then they are still important. Everyone is equal, we are all human, all skin colors and types are equal. Someone with no power or money is just as important and they do matter. Wealth or power does not matter to God. He sees us for who we are. Here is a cool story I heard long ago about how people are equal. Lets say there are two random people. One is a homeless person who treats others with kindness and love, who is not well known, is poor and is not powerful. He does good deeds but does not advertise or brag about his accomplishments and is content that no one knows because it makes him happy. Then there is the second type of person. This person treats others badly and uses power to control and manipulate them. They do good deeds only when others see and they only care about what others think of them. Just an example of how everyone is equal.

    It’s very easy to behave unkind and blame and try to hide it in humourious sarcasm, almost taking pleasure in behaving badly without any conquences and immunity to it`s outcome. . The thing is sarcasm is hard to pick up for an ordinary person. To someone who speaks a different language it`s much harder. On the internet over a forum it`s very hard as well due to no body language or cues. Being nasty and then blaming it on something that will not likely be understood makes no logical sense. Instead of being accountable and blaming yourself you blame it on something that can rarely be understood. You concluded once during your speech that “I used sarcasm so that must have been what worked! I`m sure that without sarcasm it would have worked as well. Many professional speakers don`t use sarcasm and they do perfect. There is a lot of lee way with public speaking. In classes about public speaking they don’t tell you… ok always be sarcastic that is all you need to know.

    You said “The bible is full of levity and sometimes sarcasm.” The Bible has millions upon millions of emotions and lessons and feelings in it. It is full of verything anyone can think of and has every meaning so of course it has sarcasm, why would it not? The Bible also mentions stealing many times, does that mean stealing is ok to do because it is in the Bible? There are crimes in the Bible as well does that mean it is ok to do them? Of course you can go on and on because there are endless meanings and lessons in the Bible. That is why some people spend a life time studying the BIble and why it is so wonderful and interesting.

    I take bullying very seriously. It’s an important topic to me and it means a lot to me. I study it and I know bullies are used to getting their way and used to having others obey them out of fear. They are not used to being confronted because they always get their own way. Definition of Bully: “A person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker.” You seem to mention the the power you have, the wealth, sarcasm and rudeness to intimidate and manipulate. You seem to fit that definition of a bully. I also did not know a country only had one bullying campaign, I thought there were several? What I do find interesting is that a Bully is a in control of an anti bullying campaign.

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